Rob: Sounds like a really touchy place to be in.
DS: Really catch 22. You're always in a double bid. You're always in a double bid.
Rob: Now there are two phrases that you use that I want to get you to talk about a little bit. You talk about, you're talking about the Sullivan Institute in this. And you refer to one of the leaders as a charismatic confabulator.
DS: Right.
Rob: That could be liar who's charismatic, right?
DS: Yeah, exactly. Paul Newton, who lead that group claims that. Yeah, go ahead.
Rob: And then you go on and you say that when things go wrong in these groups, narcissism runs amuck.
DS: Well what I'm saying there is that the group is often threatened by apostates who want to go public with what they've seen. Or who, I mean that's typical. And that becomes a red alert for the group. And in that case, the group gets, the leader starts terrifying everybody in the group that if they listen to any of that or if they stray from the group, hell and damnation is bound to come. So this, so at that point you know the narcissistic leader is basically going to, you know, put everybody into some, like, battle situation and they'll have to work harder and stay up all night and they'll have to, you know, have secret meetings and they'll have to spy on people. The whole thing becomes insane. This happened to the Sullivan Institute group which claimed to have a connection to Harry Stack Sullivan but which had no actual connection to him or to the institute that he was involved with The White Institute. There was no actual connection between those.
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