Rob: And one example of this kind of craziness is Jim Jones and what happened in Guyana.
DS: Well it's the ultimate example because there have been other cases of mass suicide but nothing with as on the scale of what ended up happening with Jim Jones. And you know we, I just hope we'll never see anything like it again. And yet it does keep happening. But certainly being able to get all of these people, so many of them, hundreds I guess, to move to Guyana, to live in the jungle, and to follow Jim Jones as he decompensated to florid schizophrenia and use more and more drugs and was more and more abusive and promiscuous with followers and to just keep following, no matter what, even to the point of murdering their own children and themselves. It's just astonishing. I don't think, I think that stands out as the most grotesque example, Waco maybe being the second. But then of course, the Moonie's mass marriages being another sort of horror. But the truth is these horrors happen on miniature scale and don't get talked about in much smaller groups. They may not be actual suicides or murders but there's a soul murder that happens in cults that is what I'm talking about. A traumatic injury to the sense of self that robs you of freedom. Of course we have to look at the fact that we gave away our freedom and we do so willingly, at least it seems that way while we're in the group. Certainly the horror of Germany during World War Two, just people giving away any sense of decency and honor and allowing that genocide to have happened. It's stunning to imagine. But there it is.
Rob: Yes, now you say in your comment on this that "traumatic narcissists create totalitarian systems in which their malignant envy and paranoid fear, defended against with delusional omnipotence and bolstered by self-righteous rage and hatred merged to shape a contemptuous agenda to enslave control and annihilate others." And then you say, "The narcissist is convinced that his selfish cruel agenda is in fact a generous compassionate offer of enlightenment and liberation conducted under his superior auspices for the benefit of the rest of the inferior world."
DS: I'm glad you like that sentence. I wrote it in honor of George W Bush.
Rob: You wrote that in honor of George W Bush?
DS: I did indeed. I certainly saw the Iraq war as an example of exactly what you just read. An example of delusional narcissistic sense of omnipotence, it's called national exceptionalism I believe. And you know, that our agenda to enslave and pillage and plunder and then abandon Iraq is couched as this incredibly honorable necessity that is going to purify the world. I mean, they're just, there's hardly a more blatant example of what I'm trying to describe about the traumatizing narcissist, on a global scale at least, in current times. I would say it's the perfect example.
Rob: Wow. Yeah. Well let's get into, you mention national exceptionalism. That is a symptom of America. Of American. Of the mainstream media. So talk about national exceptionalism and how that fits into your model of traumatic narcissism.
DS: Well first let's give credit to Eric Fromm again who identified this very clearly. And I don't think term exceptionalism was used when he was writing as it is now. But certainly that's what he was referring too. Nationalistic narcissism and exceptionalism are, as far as I'm concerned, the same thing. The idea that this is a superior brand of humanity here in America. America has the most superior kind of principles and ethics and government. And therefore, okay which by the way, I like democracy and I'm good with that, I'm not entirely a marxist, I'm semi-capitalistic to some extent, personally I'm just saying, it's not that I'm like you know it's not like I'm a communist. Although I wouldn't mind being a socialist, probably. Especially a Scandinavian one. But anyway, especially when I have to pay my healthcare premium because I'm self-employed. But at any rate, so you know, Fromm really identified this as narcissism. We're the best. Ra ra, you know we are the most humane, the most intelligent, the most capable and we have the best principles and morals and ethics and the best kind of government and therefore we have a right to go into the world and do whatever we want to do.
You know, if it means overthrowing a dictator that can attack us, well why shouldn't we? That's who we are in the world. It's a, it's an extremely dangerous idea, obviously. And it's a destructive idea. It's narcissistic, it's a delusional belief in your own superiority and omnipotence. And it's good to see Obama backing off a little bit, but you know, and people criticize him from both sides. But look what he was left with when he went into office in Iraq. Look at what he was left with. The whole place had been pillaged and plundered and raped and everything was a disastrous mess. Everybody who could make a buck out if it got out of there with their money. And they left the place in ruins and Obama was supposed to like, you know, patch that all up. Good luck.
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