DS: Right, okay. Well in the narcissist situation and that relational system, what becomes, what's on stage is attachment. The victim's attachment to the narcissist has become all important. It means it's there lifeline. It's their ladder. It's how they can feel good about themselves if that narcissist approves of them. Recognizes them. So in that situation, they have little choice. They can't, they feel like if they get rid of the narcissist they'll be alone. And they will have nothing. But if they stay with the narcissist they'll be hurt and disappointed and feel bad about themselves again and again and again. So which is the lesser of those two evils? Well, I think they're both terrible and neither of them is good but.
Rob: This sounds exactly like what I feel like when I go to the voting booth.
DS: Right and I understand. And the thing is, there is, in those tangible relationships the person who leaves the narcissist only fears in a phobic way that they'll be alone and that there will never be another chance. That's not a reality, that's a fear. In politics, we may in fact be having to face a reality, that you're voting for somebody who at best is going to be a compromise. And I don't know what to say about that. I think that politics is extraordinarily attractive to narcissists and it's very difficult to sort out your self-interests from interest in the public good and many people go astray in that direction. Politics is, you know, unfathomable to me. I don't know how anybody can do it. And I know that anybody who does is constantly making compromises, no matter how idealistic they are. So yeah. We are faced with, often faced with choices that amount to the lesser of two evils and that might be the best we're going to get for a while. You know I have like bring back FDR buttons on my refrigerator. I feel like at least he managed to get something done during those times. And he actually had some principles. And yeah, he made mistakes and did some accommodating. But for the most part he stood up to those who would selfishly take anything they wanted out this country and not want to put anything back in, he stood up to them and he accomplished something. And of course it all got undone. Does it start with Reagan? Yeah, probably starts there. It all got undone.
Rob: One last question. In some ways, the way that people function within corporations sounds like the way they function in cults.
DS: You know it's been said of the military, it's been said of corporations, it can be said with any group. And I think there are cult like corporations and then there are corporations that maybe, more generally been benign or benevolent or responsible. But yes, you know, certainly the movie The Wolf of Wall Street demonstrates the cult mentality. All of those things we discussed, the violation of boundaries as a norm, for example, loyalty to the leader no matter what. You know you can see all of those qualities there. And that is an unfortunate aspect of the times we live in with the deregulation of the banks we saw a whole generation, a few generations now, of people just recognize that it's all just a casino and all I have to do is kind of learn the game and learn how to rig it and take away the money and not feel any responsibility about that. I've talked to many people who have been ripped off and lost their money. Not Madoff people, but people in smaller situations losing millions and that's a big part of our culture these days. We'll see where it goes. People, the only consolation I can take is when somebody says, well these things go in cycles. I hope that's true, I hope we will cycle out of the place we are economically and politically and culturally at this time in history. I hope we will find a way to cycle out it into something more humane and more truly ethical.
Rob: Well okay so that gets me to what should really be the absolute final question. And that is, how do people protect themselves from traumatizing narcissists? And how do we as a culture, as a world, come up with solutions to do something about them?
DS: Yeah, well I think the main thing is that we have a lot of access to communication in different forms now. And yeah, there's just an incredible amount of stuff out there and who's every going to wade through it. But people who know about this problem need to speak about it. Certainly I'm part of a group, I work with colleagues who are affiliated, not in any financial way but just in terms of our work we're affiliated with the International Cultic Studies Association. I-C-S-A. It's a not for profit that tries to help people deal with cultic situations. And many of us recognize in the field who do work with cult survivors that there are often now one on one cults and there are many business and corporate cults. So we're seeing people come out of these things. It's not just the religions anymore. ICSA does great work, I don't get paid a cent by ICSA, I volunteer all the work I do. I believe it is an important resource for people to understand the nature of cults and to understand the nature of traumatic narcissism.
There are other organizations. I think there's been some negotiations going on in Syria that have been lead by a fellow in England who is trying to de-radicalize Muslim youths there in England. The name of that group is slipping my mind. But these groups that seek to educate the public about radical ideologies or about cults. These groups need to be supported. People need to write their memoirs and write their articles about these subjects. And they need to just be out there and we can only hope for a critical mass at some point to form, and has happened during the great depression for example, people finally had enough of being exploited and they voted for a way of not being exploited. So we have to hope, and we have to speak out.
Rob: I just have to pick up on one thing you said. You said that there are business and corporate cults. What's that about?
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