Even if, at the end of the day, they're not going to go and have a beer together. So, it's that kind of sense, that foundational sense, in the Civil Rights Movement in the U.S. In the Southern Non-violent Coordinating Committee, Ella Baker and earlier Martin Luther King, had talked about the idea of beloved community. And it's that similar idea of creating a base of community and care and trust that is foundational, especially as you become more militant. It's not to be confused with some kind of commune dropout, "Let's all just love each other in the countryside." It actually is a foundational place where more militancy can actually come from there.
Rob: Well, I've observed and found and had reported to me that trust is a core element of the bottom up movement. So it certainly makes sense that, for horizontalism and autogestion, any movement where people are working together in cooperating, that trust is so important.
Marina: Right, absolutely.
Rob: Now, another word that is used a lot is verticalism. Now verticalism, I see it kind of used the antithesis, the opposite, of horizontalism. Can you talk about verticalism a bit?
Marina: Yeah, I think about people having power structures. It's not just power over another person, but we actually make structures where that power is in place, and where that power is in place in a way that's not democratically decided. So there a few pieces to it. So not just, "You have power over me," but "That power was decided in a way I had no decision making in how that was going to happen," and then there's some kind of structure to it. Does that makes sense?
Rob: So, what would be some examples of verticalism?
Marina: We live in a society where all of it is vertical: as far as your workplace, how decisions are made, how often, and everything, from how often a bus runs, to your work hours, job descriptions, things like that. It's very rare that you have any participation in those decisions, and even if you do, it's not meaningful participation, though--
Rob: It seems like verticalism is somewhat similar to top down decision making / *(inaudible) 43:04
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