Clive Boddy : Uh yes, I
mean these spectacular corporate collapses, seem to have been driven by the
very, what's the right word, self aggrandizing CEO's and CFO's within the
organizations. If those people, were psychopaths, then certainly the type of
behavior, the type of conclusions that came about because of their presence
would be expected from corporate psychopaths. So, I mean fraud is the most
commonly expected act from having a psychopath, but so far there's no research
that definitely links the two. But every psychologist who writes about them,
thinks they will engage in fraudulent behavior. It's just that the connection
in research hasn't been made yet from a scientific point of view.
Rob Kall : Now you
mention in a couple different places, "dark leadership". What's that?
Clive Boddy: Well it's
just a broader term called dark, or toxic leadership. A broader term for
corporate psychopaths, I think corporate psychopaths are one of three different
types of dark leaders if you like. The next would be Machiavellians which would
be somebody who is willing to do something regardless of the consequences to
other people. And narcissists is the other one, who are people who basically love
themselves too much, and they expect the admiration of those around them. So, they have been called the dark triad, in
psychology literature for example.
Theoretically I think psychopaths would be the most destructive, because
there's nothing to say that Machiavellians and narcissists don't have a
conscience. I think the literature sort of assumes that they do have a
conscience, therefore they have a better side to them which can be appealed
too, whereas you can't, there's nothing to appeal too with a psychopath. In
fact, they would see appeals as a form of weakness, a sign of weakness, rather
than anything else.
Rob Kall : Lets talk a
little bit about your corporate psychopaths theory of the global financial
crisis. What is it, and what kind of response have you had to your theory?
Clive Boddy : Well, it's
the theory that corporate psychopaths in senior positions in corporate banks,
in the UK and the U.S. and around the world, for that matter, had an influence
on the spiraling levels of debt, and the
manufacturing of these derivative products which appear to have no social or
economic function other than to create paper profits, and therefore bonuses for
the managers concerned.
These products were so complex that
the people selling them didn't even understand them, and didn't understand
therefore the riskiness of them. And then that begs the question of course what
kind of people will sell the product that they don't understand themselves, and
don't understand the risk of themselves. And it's got to be someone who's
deficient at least in their conscience, and their empathy for other people.
So the theory was that, because
modern organizations are becoming more and more fluid, we don't get to know the people that we work
with like we used too. If you worked with someone in a company for twenty five
years, you would get to know if there were elements of their personality were
strange or abhorrent or ruthless, you'd get to know that. You'd get to know how
they treated their family, how they treated their wives, how they treated other
people around them, and it might start ringing alarm bells as to their
credibility, and their suitability for management positions.
But because modern organizations
are so fluid and fast, so they have mergers and acquisitions, you have very
fast turn over of personal, especially in key positions these days. So nobody
gets to know anybody, and therefore those who can give the best facade of being
charming and sociable, and capable get to the top quicker than perhaps more introverted
people, or people who are less capable of putting themselves in a good light in
such a short term meeting, or a short term of getting to know them. So the
theory is that psychopaths are getting to the top more and more because of
what's happening in terms of personnel turnover and in terms of the way
companies recruit people, promote them, within organizations. Therefore, they
got to the top more in the corporate banking sector, and I think they'd be
especially attracted to that sector because of the power and the money and
prestige that can be earned within it. Especially as we've just discussed, at
least one bank was using a psychopothy measure to recruit people, so their
influence on the banks would be in an ethically negative direction, and they
would effect the whole corporate culture to be more and more ruthless, more and more ego driven, more and more risk
taking. So they develop a sociopathic culture around the senior psychopaths who
were there. And if you throw in a couple of Machiavellian and narcissists into
the top management team as well, and you have the recipe where psychopaths can
get to do what they want, and can implement the organizational decisions, that they
favor for typically short term results, and
short term bonuses.
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