This is the second half of the transcript of this interview done on June 20,2013. (You can read the first half of the interview here.)
Rob Kall : It seems to me, that what you're describing is the collapse of community and connectedness among people in companies. Because if you have more of that then, these kinds of behaviors are going to be more easily identified and detected and talked about and brought to leadership.
Clive Boddy : Yes, I think that's a good point. Where you have more and more connections you've got greater chance of identifying them in the first place, and therefore restraining their influence, or restraining their gaining of management positions.
Rob Kall : It makes me think, and I call my show the Bottom Up Radio Show, most of the interviews I do are related to the idea that there's the transition from a top down to a bottom up world, our culture, our brains, and that people are getting more connected in some ways, but at the same time there are problems that are affecting our connections. Like globalization hurts community, consumer culture hurts community, and it seems to me that those kinds of things are having this side effect really, that leads to opening up corporations to being more vulnerable or susceptible to allowing entry to these kinds of predators into their upper echelons.
Clive Boddy : Yes I agree with that. I think one of the things that can perhaps constrain it is, there are a number of large European companies that tend to recruit at the graduate level, and then they keep the people within the company, over a long term career. And through doing that they can get to know the people in greater depth, the employees in greater depth and prevent them, the more abberant personalities from getting to the top. But suddenly even those companies, who do traditionally do that, are now starting to look outside their own ranks to recruit people. And as soon as you start bringing in people who you don't know the true character of, then of course there's the danger of bringing in somebody whose too ruthless and too psychopathic.
Rob Kall: Are there certain industries that tend to do that more than others?
Clive Boddy: Oh well, recruit and then keep the staff?
Rob Kall: No, industries that will hire people without knowing who they're hiring.
Clive Boddy: I don't know, is the top of the mind answer to that. I don't think many people have really, or many organizations are very thorough in terms of, contacting referees and people who have worked with people, to check to see if they are okay individuals. I think these days it's very much, the person whose appointed is the person who gives the best impression on the day of the interview. So there's not much background checking anymore, by any organization I don't think. And obviously there needs to be.
Rob Kall: And I'm inclined to go back to my question about the idea of corporations actually doing screeningss. You've said that this could be important and valuable but they're not doing it. Do you see that as something that could develop or are we to expect to see more and more psychopaths running, and at high levels of corporations?
Clive Boddy: The way society is going, and the way organizations are going, I think we're moving towards having more and more of them emerge because of the speed of change that's happening, and the way people are recruited. On the other hand, I think the message about psychopaths existing at the corporate level is now fairly well known, and therefore people more at the grassroots might demand, or come to demand, that these people are properly screened before they're given very senior jobs. And I think the higher the job, the more compelling the argument is to check their backgrounds, and check the people they've worked with, and see what kind of person they're really like.
Rob Kall: It'd be interesting if there were some kind go crowd sourcing technology that would allow employees to, in some way, report. But of course then the sociopaths would have access to it too, and that's been a big concern of some of my readers, that any technology that identifies sociopaths can be used by sociopaths too. And perhaps, like that one banker that has been hiring sociopaths screening for them.
Clive Boddy: Well yes, quite, and I don't know how to get around that I'm afraid.
Rob Kall: Yeah. One of the things that interested me, is that in light of this global financial crisis corporate psychopath theory, is you said that when large financial corporations are destroyed by the actions of their senior directors, employees lose their jobs, and sometimes their livelihoods, shareholders lose their investments and sometimes their life savings, and societies lose key parts of the economic infrastructure. Capitalism also loses some of its credibility.