This is the first half of the transcript of this interview done on June 20,2013.
Rob Kall : My guest tonight is Clive Boddy, he's the author of Corporate Psychopaths: Organizational Destroyers. Now you also have a university connection is that right?
Clive Boddy : Yeah, that's right, I'm professor of Leadership and Organizational Behavior at Middlesex University in the UK.
Rob Kall : Okay, so you've got this book and you've been writing, and it's really an academic professional, this is not a book for layman, it's citing research and the target of this is academics. Or, who's the target of this book?
Clive Boddy : Yeah that's right, its basically an academic book detailing my research on corporate psychopaths and their affects on organizations. It's the research I undertook in Australia a few years ago, so yeah it's, that particular book is aimed at an academic audience. Though I am writing a popular version of it now. I'm not finished yet.
Rob Kall : So, you have a chapter in your book that's also a stand alone article in the Journal Of Business Ethics, titled "The Corporate Psychopaths Theory of the Global Financial Crisis".
Clive Boddy : Yes that's right, I expanded that into a small article in that journal. It created a bit of interest among the general public and a financial of insiders.
Rob Kall : Yes, you've gotten some google exposure there, a lot of different planes. I found you with your Ted Talk on psychopaths and corporate bullies.
Clive Boddy : Yeah, yes.
Rob Kall : So I want to get an understanding of this. Recently I did an interview with Psychiatrist Donald Black who wrote a book, Bad Boys Bad Men, which is about sociopaths. Now he says sociopath and psychopaths are the same thing. There are eight and a half million of them. Now I know that others say that there are about a million psychopaths in the U.S., and that's, name Robert Hare, the author of Snakes in Suits, which is about corporate psychopaths, says. And I'm not the expert to sort out which is the right answer. Now I understand that you base your work on Hare's numbers, or at least when you talk about the numbers you use Hare's numbers, right?
Clive Boddy : Yeah, I prefer his definition of psychopaths and sociopaths as well, because he differentiates the two.
Rob Kall : Okay, could you differentiate them for us here?
Clive Boddy : Yes sure, in a nutshell, the word sociopath, because it has associations with socialization and learned behavior, implies a person who has been brought up, or cultured, or educated to be a sociopath, in other words to have a ruthless personality. Whereas a psychopath seems to be more born than made, so they are, they have a series of brain mystery, and connectivity abnormalities as you like, which seem to predispose them to have no conscience. And it's that lack of conscience that makes them ruthless towards other people, to behave in the characteristic ways of psychopaths.