Rob: And you use that phrase caminando preguntamos, which I think translates as walking we ask questions.
MS: Right, exactly, exactly.
Rob: And yet, this is a kind of an abstract concept, but you make it very clear there are very concrete paths that people walk while questioning.
MS: Right, right.
Rob: Like what?
MS: Entire communities of thousands of people in Chaves, Mexico being self-governed with this concept, think about that. Thousands of thousands of people governing themselves with this concept. People living together in different areas with this concept; organizing in the assemblies and making decisions with this spirit, anyway; of not having the answer, but figuring it out together and while we're asking, I know that some people get really frustrated in long assemblies. I don't think there's a need to have all consensus based assemblies, people should find their appropriate form of decision making. But taking some time in that process is important and that it's face to face so that we can do this, so that we have this space to question and ask and build the relationships, and question and ask and build the relationships as we go along.
Rob: And, like I said, this is something that I think is really difficult for people who tend to be authoritarian and as I've recently learned, most people who tend to be authoritarian are not people who are leaders and giving commands, they're people who need to be told what to do and how to think and what to feel. They are people who need authoritarian people telling them what to do.
MS: Which is -- I mean this is how they teach us in school, the absurdity of being whatever, a 17 year old and having to raise your hand to go to the bathroom? To ask permission. I mean the way we're taught to be in society is all about this following rules and not doing things together and not thinking together and the right answer, not collaborating.
Rob: Okay, next concept. No to Representative Democracy and there's a quote I want to read that you cite in your book: Almost every country in the world claims to be democratic, democracy is used to argue for everything from wars, repression, control and spying to the right of people to carry weapons, shoot home intruders, evict families and deforest the land. Democracy, while a seemingly broad term is generally used with a very specific meaning. Generally as a synonym for liberal democracy, but liberal democracy is far from being the only possible form of democracy. And then, just to -- one last piece of the quote. Democracy is -- you cite Fani from Thessaloniki, Greece. We don't make decisions, we have no real power so democracy is a concept that has been destroyed to such a degree that if we're about to use it again, we should completely reinvent it.
MS: Yeah, this Fani she's a wonderful organizer in Greece, part of a neighborhood assembly that's mainly women actually, it's a place called Anopoli. Whether we call it democracy or not, I like the idea of recuperating the idea of taking back democracy as the people rule, the people make the decisions and it's probably a perfect place to conclude the conversation because the people don't rule, we don't make decisions over the most important things in our life. If you really think about what's most important to you, we don't have a say over any of it, but we can and we should, and that's what these new movements -- you know, at their heart, what they're about is saying, no to the way things are and beginning to experiment with different ways of being together, so as to make decisions, that are most important to us. Kind of exercising that democracy muscle that's been dormant for so long that it's kind of uneven and taking a little bit and it's going to take us a little while but really beginning to create meaning in democracy, in our deciding our own lives and our future and our relationships.
Rob: Okay, we're wrapping up --
MS: Yes.
Rob: So, you know what? I have to say, this book is just so rich with ideas for people who want to change and are not satisfied with what's been going on. I can't recommend it highly enough, it's a great book, we barely touched it. I think we could go on for another hour but you're a new mom and you need to take care of your child. So thank you very much for what you've done and for the conversation.
MS: Thank you very much for organizing it so nicely, okay take care.
Rob: Okay bye.
MS: Right, exactly, exactly.
Rob: And yet, this is a kind of an abstract concept, but you make it very clear there are very concrete paths that people walk while questioning.
MS: Right, right.
MS: Entire communities of thousands of people in Chaves, Mexico being self-governed with this concept, think about that. Thousands of thousands of people governing themselves with this concept. People living together in different areas with this concept; organizing in the assemblies and making decisions with this spirit, anyway; of not having the answer, but figuring it out together and while we're asking, I know that some people get really frustrated in long assemblies. I don't think there's a need to have all consensus based assemblies, people should find their appropriate form of decision making. But taking some time in that process is important and that it's face to face so that we can do this, so that we have this space to question and ask and build the relationships, and question and ask and build the relationships as we go along.
Rob: And, like I said, this is something that I think is really difficult for people who tend to be authoritarian and as I've recently learned, most people who tend to be authoritarian are not people who are leaders and giving commands, they're people who need to be told what to do and how to think and what to feel. They are people who need authoritarian people telling them what to do.
MS: Which is -- I mean this is how they teach us in school, the absurdity of being whatever, a 17 year old and having to raise your hand to go to the bathroom? To ask permission. I mean the way we're taught to be in society is all about this following rules and not doing things together and not thinking together and the right answer, not collaborating.
Rob: Okay, next concept. No to Representative Democracy and there's a quote I want to read that you cite in your book: Almost every country in the world claims to be democratic, democracy is used to argue for everything from wars, repression, control and spying to the right of people to carry weapons, shoot home intruders, evict families and deforest the land. Democracy, while a seemingly broad term is generally used with a very specific meaning. Generally as a synonym for liberal democracy, but liberal democracy is far from being the only possible form of democracy. And then, just to -- one last piece of the quote. Democracy is -- you cite Fani from Thessaloniki, Greece. We don't make decisions, we have no real power so democracy is a concept that has been destroyed to such a degree that if we're about to use it again, we should completely reinvent it.
MS: Yeah, this Fani she's a wonderful organizer in Greece, part of a neighborhood assembly that's mainly women actually, it's a place called Anopoli. Whether we call it democracy or not, I like the idea of recuperating the idea of taking back democracy as the people rule, the people make the decisions and it's probably a perfect place to conclude the conversation because the people don't rule, we don't make decisions over the most important things in our life. If you really think about what's most important to you, we don't have a say over any of it, but we can and we should, and that's what these new movements -- you know, at their heart, what they're about is saying, no to the way things are and beginning to experiment with different ways of being together, so as to make decisions, that are most important to us. Kind of exercising that democracy muscle that's been dormant for so long that it's kind of uneven and taking a little bit and it's going to take us a little while but really beginning to create meaning in democracy, in our deciding our own lives and our future and our relationships.
Rob: Okay, we're wrapping up --
MS: Yes.
Rob: So, you know what? I have to say, this book is just so rich with ideas for people who want to change and are not satisfied with what's been going on. I can't recommend it highly enough, it's a great book, we barely touched it. I think we could go on for another hour but you're a new mom and you need to take care of your child. So thank you very much for what you've done and for the conversation.
MS: Thank you very much for organizing it so nicely, okay take care.
Rob: Okay bye.
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