K.F.: Right well you've gone into the world of Underminers now which is the new book, I mean both of the books by the way are available online to read for free. I'll make sure you'll put the links up later, well we've got TimesUpBook.com and Underminers.org. They're the two books. And as I say I've given them Greater Commons Licences and you can read them for free.
If you want to buy them fine but I am not bothered. Yes I did expand it in Underminers taking these other things such as school us which is a very important thing that we're talking about specific things within society, constructs within society that give us these little pods of existence. And now I must give some credit here to other people such as Dave Pollard who is a writer from British Columbia who did a lot of work on this with me. A great inspiration.
What are we disconnected from? I mean I've been over this idea of real world, I mean we've been actively disconnected constantly. One thing that I've made clear and this is in Underminers and took time to work out, this is a real light bulb moment for me because I realized although we've got all these tools of disconnection there is something there that is stopping us from being aware of it. And that was really difficult to perceive really, and understandably so.
This idea that there is something in the background which is keeping us ignorant of the tools of disconnection. This idea of what I call the veil of ignorance and that really hit me because all of this time that I had been writing, all of this time I had been campaigning and people had appreciated that there were these tools for disconnection. While they appreciated them they didn't necessarilysee them, perceive them and it took awhile to realize that a lot of the efforts that civilization goes to is about trying to keep people being ignorant that they are even being disconnected.
If you see what I mean. So disconnection is a multi layered process and it's a constant effort and we're not talking about conspiracy theories here, we're talking about things that are out in the open. You can list all of these things and if you listed all of these things and you can see all of those things going on day by day, there's nothing secret about them.
The real clever thing is that fact that we are made to accept them as normal life and that's this veil of ignorance that somehow keeps us blind to their constant presence. And that is about how you are brought up from birth and that is a very fundamental thing and so disconnection is a life-long process. Does that make sense?
R.K.: Yes. And you say that by ensuring people are disconnected from anything that might provide them with alternative view of what life is really about, disconnection from the real world is achieved using these tools of disconnection and what is that? What is what life is really about that people are disconnected from?
K.F.: I think you described it quite well in the bottom up idea. As humans we have always been deeply connected to the global ecology as I said. We have existed for the vast majority of the length of time as non civilized people and that was a form of life that required us to understand intimately the cycles of nature. We needed to know where our food came from, where our shelter came from, fresh water, we needed to connect with each other because all of these basic human requirements are fundamental to how we've evolved.
We haven't evolved in the last ten thousand years, and humanity is not something that changes just because you change a culture. Humanity is a long term, it's almost if you think of it like a long term project really. It's ongoing. You don't suddenly say, right I'm going to completely change this project. I'm going to take it an up end it and this is now how you're going to do things and that's essentially what society has done.
You're not going to live the way you used to live, this is better and the reason it's said to be better is because it benefits a few people at the top. It benefits for want of a better word a load psychotics. And then so we feel we're benefiting from these material goods, we feel we're benefiting from this nonstop entertainment, we feel we're benefiting from living in this bubble but we're killing everything. We're destroying everything that we used to depend upon and we still depend upon but we just don't realize anymore.
So I'm not saying we should be going back. Back is the wrong word. We need to just find a way of living and this is what we we need to reconnect with, a way of living that is like we used to live and if we've gained knowledge along the way then that's great, as long as we're not crapping up everything just because we want to make a quick buck.
That's not what living is about. So getting back to that way of living that has managed to sustain humanity for hundreds of thousands of years. If that's not a good thing then clearly all these people who are living for hundreds of thousands of years were somehow doing something wrong. And if they were doing something wrong then how did they exist for all that time? I mean, it's really a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will not survive if you destroy everything, you will survive if you learn not to destroy everything. So that's essentially where we need to go.
R.K.: Now you talked about industrial civilization and now Daniel Quinn conceptualized it, how is Daniel Quinn fit into the picture and what's the difference between civilization and industrial civilization?
K.F.: Okay, Daniel Quinn is someone I am actually, admit I haven't read Ishmael but the book I did read of his is called Beyond Civilization which I really enjoyed. Just a small book though. From out of that, came this idea there is no one right way to live which I constantly harken back to.
It's a really nice phrase to keep repeating to yourself whenever anyone says to you for instance get back to the real world or live this life, it's the best, or those people other there, they don't know what living is about. There is no one right way to live and basically what that's saying is there's civilization. That is one way to live but there have been countless other different ways of living that are beyond the civilization. They are something else. And they've been successful.
The only reason they've stopped being successful is because civilization has destroyed those cultures, has destroyed those environments in which those cultures exist, in order to make money. It's almost like we're trying to wipe out anything that's not civilization on purpose.
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