For more, we go directly to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where we're joined by Andrew Fishman, a researcher and reporter for The Intercept, where he's covered Brazil extensively along with his co-authors Glenn Greenwald and David Miranda.
Andrew Fishman, welcome back to Democracy Now! Talk about what's happened.
ANDREW FISHMAN: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: The president, or I should say at this point the suspended president, Dilma Rousseff, has called what's happening in Brazil a coup.
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yes, there's been a concerted action to remove her from office by the leaders of the opposition in Congress and also by the media. The current interim president, Michel Temer, was, before, her vice president. They ran together twice. And he was, until very recently, her ally. And so, she's had very strong words against him for being one of the leaders to remove her from power. The Workers' Party was -- has been in power. They've won four straight elections. They had -- they have great popular support, or they had, at least until recently, once the economy started going sour. And as is the case in basically any country, once the economy goes south, so does the approval rating of the president.
The opposition, seeing a chance to finally take advantage of this moment and get into -- get into a position of power, decided that this is the moment, and they started pushing this case for impeachment, which, even though a lot of the coverage that you've seen, and especially down here in Brazil, has been based on corruption, corruption, corruption, and the corruption case in Petrobras, the state oil company, this has nothing to do with her corruption -- with her impeachment proceedings. She's being impeached on a technicality of some financial accounting measures, where she used some state-sponsored banks to cover some short-term deficits, which were all paid back in the end. Basically, any jurist says that this is not -- does not rise to the level of an impeachable offense, although the opposition has run with it. But in the discussion that they've had going forward, they've always focused on the impeachment angle--or, the corruption angle, because it's much more powerful. And the Brazilian people are really fed up with corruption.
One thing that's really noteworthy is that while the majority of the Brazilian population does support President Rousseff's -- or, former President Rousseff's removal from office, the majority all support, in similar margin -- want President Temer impeached, because they think that he's also -- that he is involved in corruption, unlike Dilma, where there's no proof that she is. It's very possible that she is involved and she knew about the schemes, but there's no evidence to that nature, whereas there is much greater evidence that Temer and his allies are involved actively in corruption and illicit enrichment. Only 8 percent of the population wants Temer as president, which is shocking. In a most -- in a recent poll, 2 percent of the population said that they would vote for him. If it weren't for this impeachment, which they call a coup, it would have been impossible for someone like Michel Temer to become the president of Brazil.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Andrew Fishman, you mentioned that what Dilma Rousseff is charged with is not in fact an impeachable offense, and many jurists agree on that. So how is it that she's been impeached?
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yeah, and, of course, I mean, there are people -- there are jurists aligned with the opposition that say that it certainly is, it certainly does rise to the level. But, you know, international observers far and wide, from international organizations to the press, to diplomats, to a Nobel Peace Prize winner in Argentina who fought against the military dictatorship there, have all agreed that this is not an impeachable offense, and therefore some call it a coup. Others say, at the very least, it is certainly an antidemocratic, undemocratic action to remove her from power.
AMY GOODMAN: On Thursday, Marcelo Ninio, from the Brazilian newspaper Folha de SÃ £o Paulo, questioned U.S. State Department spokeswoman Elizabeth Trudeau about the situation in Brazil.
MARCELO NINIO: I wanted to ask about Brazil first. It's -- what the State Department and the U.S. government expect about the relationship with the interim government? And has there been any communication yet with the new government?
ELIZABETH TRUDEAU: Well, I can't speak to our embassy communication there. You know, as you know, we maintain a strong bilateral relationship between our two countries. As the two largest democracies in the hemisphere, Brazil and the United States are committed partners. You know, we cooperate with Brazil on a number of issues -- you know, trade, security, environment. We expect that'll continue.
AMY GOODMAN: So that's the U.S. State Department, Andrew Fishman. And Pravda, an article in Pravda, explained that over the last few years the BRICS nations -- you know, that's Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa -- have become a significant geopolitical threat to the interests of the United States. And again, this is Pravda, the Russian paper, said it's quite possible the CIA is involved in the plan to stage riots in Brazil nationwide, that U.S. intelligence agencies are involved with this coup. Is there any evidence of this?
ANDREW FISHMAN: I mean, there has been plenty of speculation about this. Obviously, the CIA operates in secrecy, so it's difficult to say one way or another. Dilma herself has said that there's absolutely no proof to that nature. I have not seen anything that convinces me that that's the case. Again, who knows what the actual situation is?
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Andrew Fishman, even though --
ANDREW FISHMAN: But also, the State Department spokesman also said that she's not sure if the -- if anyone from the United States has reached out to President Temer to congratulate him. They referred to the White House. Josh Earnest, the spokesperson for the White House, then said, "You should speak to the State Department." So it's not clear that even any foreign leaders have gone out to congratulate President Temer, although the statement that the State Department spokesman made, saying that they believe that Brazil will continue to function within democratic means and the democratic systems and will be strengthened, it's a tacit show of support. I mean, they haven't come out strongly one way or another in public saying that they're for or against impeachment, because really that's -- the implication of that would be so strong. It would be -- if it were in fact that the United States wanted this, wanted the Temer administration above Dilma's administration -- and I believe that is the case, that they much prefer, as the foreign investors much prefer, having Temer -- at least that's what they've shown, based on his statements. Just making that statement that -- reaffirming the democratic nature of this movement, which is clearly anti-democratic, that says a lot, even though it's done quite in diplomatic terms.
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