Korten: Well, you know, I mean, actually this goes to living systems. Living systems are extraordinarily self-organizing in the sense that there is no central control in our own bodies, of course they’re, I mean, I talk about this in The Post-Corporate World that, ah, and The Great Turning, that you’ve got these trillions of cells, and there’s no, I mean, we’re sort of conditioned, well the brain is controlling everything, but that’s not true. I mean, the brain controls certain aspects, but the whole system of cell function and cell organization, you know, these are all individual living beings that are in intense inner-communication and continuous adaptation to maintain both their individual health and vitality, but as well the health and vitality and function of our total organism. And, you know, that’s the same general principle in any kind of an ecosystem. There’s no central authority saying, “Okay, you go here. You do that.” Or you know, setting the direction…
Kall: What I’m saying in the introduction in my book is that nature is bottom up. The universe is bottom up. The way the World works is bottom up.
Korten: Well, yeah, I mean…Yeah, it’s just a different term. You could use the same term, self-organization, and it would actually put you more directly in sync with the system literature. Not that the concept’s different, but just the terminology.
Kall: And, then the other thing that you bring up and that you talk about is that it was civilization, empire, that turned things around.
Korten: Well, that’s, yeah…
Kall: The way close to two million years…
Korten: That’s semantics. The thing I make out of that is that the historians equate civilization, which, you know, we assume is a good thing, with the beginning of empire. One could say, I mean it’s all definition, that if you’re talking about, you know, organized human activity, with some kind of sense of culture, and so forth, that that goes way back before empire. But, we’re not supposed to recognize those guys as civilized. (Laughs)
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