DJ: Yes, I get so tired of people saying they hope salmon survive, or hope this or hope that. But what is hope? Hope is a longing for a future condition over which we have no agency. That's how we use the word in every day language. I don't say, "Gosh, I hope I put my shoes on before I go outside." I just do it. On the other hand, the next time I get on a plane I hope it doesn't crash. After I get on the plane I have no agency. Think of this: if a parent says to an eight-year-old child, "Please clean your room," and the child says, "I hope it gets done," we all know that's ridiculous. I asked an eight-year-old what would happen if she said that to her parents, and she said, "Someone has to clean the room!"
That kid is smarter than a lot of environmentalists. It's ridiculous to say we hope global warming doesn't kill the planet when we can stop the oil economy that is causing global warming. I'm not interested in hope. I'm interested in agency, and I'm interested in people no longer waiting for some miracle to solve their problems. We need to do what is necessary.
MZ: When you first began writing and speaking about civilization and the eventual collapse, did you ever truly imagine that you'd be around to see things as bad as they are right now?
DJ: No. And even though I wrote in The Culture of Make Believe about the ways in which economic collapse can lead to more and more over brownshirt-ism and fascism, I'm still kind of stunned at the way it is happening here. But more to the point, even though I've written something on the order of fifteen books about this culture's insanity, I still cannot believe this isn't all a bad dream, with this frenzied maintenance of this culture as the world is murdered. I keep wanting to wake up, but each time I awaken this culture is still killing the planet, and not many people care.
MZ: I'm sure you can't even calculate how many times you've been interviewed but I'm wondering if there's a question you always wished you'd been asked but so far, no one has done so. If so, by way of wrapping up, please feel free to ask and answer that question.
DJ: Four questions:
Q: You've said many times that you don't believe that humans are particularly more sentient than other animals. Where do you draw the line?
A: I don't draw the line at all. I don't see any reason to believe anything other than that the universe is full of a wild symphony of wildly different voices, wildly different intelligences. Humans have human intelligence, which is no greater nor less than octopi intelligence, which is no greater nor less than redwood intelligence, which is no greater nor less than flu virus intelligence, which is no greater nor less than granite intelligence, which is no greater nor less than river intelligence, and so on.
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