And here's a little footnote you're not supposed to cite. They've also violated the U.S. Constitution. Read Article Six, which says that treaties entered into by the United States are the supreme law of the land every elected official is bound to observe. The major post-World War II treaty was that UN Charter, which bans the threat or use of force. In other words, every single U.S. president has violated the Constitution, which we're supposed to worship as given to us by God.
So, is China becoming a "peer competitor"? It is in the regions surrounding it. Look at the war games run by the Pentagon and they suggest that, if there were a local war over Taiwan, China would probably win. Of course, the idea is ridiculous because any war would quickly explode into a terminal one. But those are the games they play. So, China's a peer competitor. Is it acting properly and legally? Of course not. It's fortified rocks in the South China Sea. It's in violation of international law, in violation of a specific judgment of the UN, but it's expanding.
Still, the primary Chinese threat is initiatives like bringing Saudi Arabia and Iran together and so throwing a serious wrench into U.S. policies going back 80 years to control the Middle East. Strategically, it's the "most important area in the world," as the government put it, and China's horning in on that, creating a political settlement that might reduce tensions, might even solve the horrifying war in Yemen, while bringing together Washington's primary ally there, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, its major enemy. That's intolerable! For the U.S. and Israel, it's a real blow.
Barsamian: Your classic book with Ed Herman is Manufacturing Consent . If you were updating it today, you would, of course, replace the Soviet Union with China and/or Russia and undoubtedly add the growth of social media. Anything else?
Chomsky: Those would be the main things. Social media is not a small point. It's having a very complex effect on American society. Go back to the U.S. invasion of Iraq. The majority of the population thought that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. Beyond outlandish, but they had heard enough propaganda here to believe it. Social media is only making all of this worse. A recent study of young people, of what's called Generation Z, and where they get their news found that almost nobody reads the newspapers anymore. Almost nobody watches television. Very few people even look at Facebook. They're getting it from TikTok, Instagram. What kind of a community is going to try to understand this world from watching people having fun on TikTok?
The other effect of social media is to drive people into self-reinforcing bubbles. We're all subject to that. People like me listen to your program or Democracy Now. We don't listen to Breitbart. Conversely, the same is true. And another monster is coming along, the chatbot system of artificial intelligence, a wonderful way to create disinformation, demonization, defamation. Probably no way to control it. And all of this is part of manufacturing consent. We are the best and the brightest. Get those people out of our hair and we'll run the world for everybody's benefit. We've seen how that works.
Barsamian: How do we overcome propaganda and what are some techniques for challenging savage capitalism?
Chomsky: The way you challenge propaganda is the way you're doing it, just more -- more active, more engaged. As for savage capitalism, there are two steps. The smaller is to eliminate the savage part. It's not exactly utopian to say: let's go back to what we had pre-Reagan. Let's have a moderately harsh capitalism in which there are still some decent wages, rights for people, and so on. Far from ideal, but much better than what we've had since.
The second step is to get rid of the core problem. Let's go back to the early stages of the Industrial Revolution in the United States. Working people took it for granted that the wage contract was a totally illegitimate assault on their basic rights, turning you into what were openly called "wage slaves." Why should we follow the orders of a master for all of our waking lives? It was considered an abomination. It was even a slogan of the Republican Party under Lincoln that this was intolerable. That movement lasted into the early 20th century before finally being crushed by Woodrow Wilson's Red Scare, which basically wiped out the Socialist Party and the labor movement. There was some recovery in the thirties, but not to that extent.
And now even that's gone. People regard it as their highest goal in life to be subjected to the orders of a master for most of their waking lives. And that's really effective propaganda, but it can change, too. There already are proposals for worker participation in management that are anything but utopian. They exist in Germany and other places and that could become: Why don't we take the enterprise over for ourselves? Why should we follow the orders of some banker in New York when we can run this place better? I don't think that's all that far away.
Barsamian: The lunatics seemingly control the asylum. What signs of sanity are out there to counter the lunatics?
Chomsky: Plenty. There's lots of popular activism. It's in the streets. Young people calling for the decent treatment of others. A lot of it is very solid and serious. Extinction Rebellion, the Sunrise Movement. Let's save the planet from destruction. There are lots of voices. Yours, Democracy Now, Chris Hedges, lots of sites, Alternet, Common Dreams, Truthout, The Intercept, TomDispatch, many others. All of these are efforts to create an alternative world in which human beings can survive. Those are the signs of hope for the world.
Copyright 2023 David Barsamian and Noam Chomsky
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