But, you know, there are millions of Trump supporters who look at him as primarily a cult figure, who see in his power an extension of their own power, a way to compensate for their own sense of disempowerment. And it's very clear that they will react. They already have attempted to react with violence. Ocasio-Cortez herself has been the recipient of death threats. And this violence against her has been stoked by the president.
And so, my big fear is that somehow people think that impeachment is the panacea. Removing Trump and, you know, Noam Chomsky, probably correctly, points out that Pence will be worse, because he comes out of the community of Christian fascists. I speak as a seminary graduate. They're heretics. And so, it is very dangerous for those figures who --
AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean, they're heretics?
CHRIS HEDGES: Heretics? Jesus didn't come to drop the bless the dropping of iron fragmentation bombs across the Middle East or bless the white race above other race or hold up America. I mean, this is heretical. And the failure on the liberal church to call out these people for who they are, and give them religious legitimacy that's another show I think, has been perhaps the greatest failing of the liberal church, which I come out of.
And so, our problems are far more severe. Trump is the product. He is what's vomited up from a failed democracy, in the same way that I saw figures like Radovan Karadzic or Slobodan Milosevic vomited up from the failed democracy of Yugoslavia, or you can go back to Weimar Nazis. So, we have to begin to address the fundamental root causes that have created the political crisis and the economic crisis, the social and even cultural crisis that we are in. And if we don't reknit those social bonds, if we don't confront that crisis, impeachment may very well pour gasoline on the growing antagonisms and violence that is besetting this country.
JUAN GONZÃ �LEZ: And, John Bonifaz, I wanted to ask you, though if Nancy Pelosi's decision to move forward on an impeachment inquiry on this issue of the phone conversation with the Ukrainian... with Ukraine's president, I feel like I'm in Casablanca: Surprise, there's gambling at this establishment. Right? I mean, isn't the ability of presidents of the United States to pressure foreign leaders to do what they want sort of part of the process of how the United States wields power? Or is it just the situation here that the president did it directly himself rather than have one of his minions exert the pressure?
JOHN BONIFAZ: No, the issue is that he solicited foreign interference to help his election campaign, not that he solicited pressure or forced a country to do something that he claims was for the U.S. foreign policy.
JUAN GONZÃ �LEZ: Well, that itself has happened. Didn't the Reagan administration convince Iran to hold back the release of the...Ronald Reagan's people convinced Iran to hold back the release of the Iranian hostages until the president was inaugurated.
JOHN BONIFAZ: There's no question there's a history of impeachable offenses being committed by other administrations. But I do want to come back to this idea that impeachment is a panacea. No one in the impeachment movement and this has been a people's movement pressuring for impeachment proceedings. No one is suggesting it's a panacea. What is required is that Congress do its job and hold this president accountable for his abuses of power. But that doesn't mean we can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
Free Speech for People has been around for 10 years. We've been taking on big money in politics and corruption in government, and we will continue to do that in the fight for our democracy. But we did not believe we could be true to that mandate without also taking on the unprecedented corruption of this presidency.
And I do want to add, you know, because this is a people's movement, the pressure needs to continue, and will continue, on Congress to expand the scope of its inquiry beyond the Ukraine scandal. On October 13th, there will be a national day of action called by one of our organizational allies, By the People, for marches all across the country. Already a number of marches have been organized on the eve of Congress returning from its recess. People can find out more about that by going to ByThePpl.us and ImpeachNow.org. But this is why we are where we are today, is because people have demanded this, millions of people all over the country, that Congress do its job and uphold the Constitution.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, of course, we'll continue discussions like these, and I thank you so much for being with us, John Bonifaz, attorney, political activist, co-founder and president of Free Speech for People, one of the organizations calling for Trump's impeachment. John Bonifaz is co-author of The Constitution Demands It: The Case for the Impeachment of Donald Trump. And Chris Hedges, formerly with The New York Times, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, award-winning author, activist, columnist for the news website Truthdig. His latest article, "The Problem with Impeachment." He has written numerous books; his last, America: The Farewell Tour.
When we come back, we turn to the water crisis in Newark with Mayor Ras Baraka. Stay with us.
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