Jessie: That's right, it is. I think a lot of workplace shootings have
taken place just around those circumstances, because again, the equation being
that they are supposed to be financially wealthy and powerful and successful,
and you take away these jobs, and you reduce people's salaries ,and you tell
people the way to express masculinity is through violence; it is a recipe.
Rob: So what do you think is going to happen in
the next couple of weeks or months in response to all of this?
Jessie: My hope is that Obama will take this as a
moment where he can have some positive impact, and make his legacy about trying
to create a more peaceful country. He is
in a position where he can pass tighter gun control laws, and I think at least
there is some conversation about that potential. I'm not sure he grasps what else he could do
to try to help schools become more community-oriented. The race to the top has not been particularly
helpful in challenging the bully cultures, because schools just became that
much more competitive about whether they are achieving through one assessment
test or another. My hope would be that
there would be some sense about how we can create policies to encourage schools
to create community to help students bond with one another; to teach kids how
to be friends where they can really trust each other, and not fear that their
secrets will be posted on Facebook. I
think Obama is in a very unique position to act and to be known throughout
history for making this shift, and it is a window that is short-lived. Barring that, I think people are all mourning
this horrific incident. I think there is
a wide-spread depression and sadness around what happened. People are beginning to think about, "What
can I do differently in my life that would be of more support to other human
beings?" I think that kind of
self-reflection is important, so we make more space, not just for family and
friends, but for people in our community more generally. What can we do to create different
priorities? It's not easy, because we do
have deadlines and we do have to get to work on time, and all of these things,
but, what can we do to shift things even a little bit so that we have more
space for one another?
Rob: "Station ID" I'm speaking with Jessie
Klein. She is the author of Bully
Society: School Shootings and the Crisis of Bullying in America's Schools. Jessie, I just asked you about what you think
will be happening in the next couple of weeks or months, and you talked about
Obama doing something. It seems to me
that what Obama is mostly looking at is something that has to do with gun
control or magazine ammunition clip control.
Is there anybody bringing to him or talking to him about these ideas
that you have? Who is his Education
Secretary? Arne Duncan? Is that part of
the national conversation yet? Is there
a way that there are specific policies that he could implement or promote, that
would address what you are talking about?
Jessie: I don't know that I have the President's
ear. I could send him my book, and I'm
hoping that other people will be talking about these kinds of issues. I think a lot of people talk about creating
community in different ways. There are
lots of books that address these issues: T he Overworked American by
Juliet Shore. T he Lonely American by Jacqueline Olds and Richard
Schwartz. T he Cheating Culture by David Callahan. Branded: The Buying
and Selling of Teenagers by Alissa Quart.
There are so many books out right now that are articulating how
competitive and uncompassionate we have become as a nation, and how important
it is for us to create more community.
I'm certainly not a lone voice, so I'm hopeful that that conversation
will get somewhere close to those discussions; I don't know to what extent it
will enter legislation.
Rob: Is there anybody in his cabinet who has an
interest in this who has addressed this in any way? His Education Secretary:
have you reach out to him, or anybody in the Department of Education? Are there ways that we can literally take
this opportunity? I'm in the middle of
writing an article right now. This is an
amazing opportunity for activists, for people who have a different take on what
is going on, to insert themselves into this national conversation. I'm just trying to troubleshoot with you, or
just come up with ideas. How can these
ideas reach up so that the White House pays attention to them?
Jessie: It's not exactly my field, politics, because
I'm a sociology and criminal justice professor.
I've been a political activist.
It is something you are making me think about: to what extent could I
get my book to be considered up there?
It's certainly not my expertise, but it does make me think about to what
extent these kinds of relationships need to be developed, so that these
conversations can be had at a higher level.
Rob: I think his name is Arne Duncan; he is the
Education Czar. It just seems to me like
now is the time! Right now, as we do
this interview, I have the TV on mute, but Obama is giving a speech at the
White House that we need to do something.
He is picking up that hammer in response to the nail. You know the old saying, "If all you have is
a hammer, everything is a nail?" You are
coming up with a totally different approach to this that I think is very
exciting and very viable, but probably also scary. It has to be very effectively and carefully
framed to avoid creating a sense of threatening men and what have you. It's a real challenge; we're in a culture now
that is fighting the kind of thing you are talking about tooth and nail. I believe - and that's why I call my radio
show Bottom Up Radio - that we are transitioning to a bottom up culture that
values community and values interdependence, but this issue that you are
talking about with bullying, and the value system that goes with bullying, is
right at the intersection of this conflict between the top down and the bottom
up world. And the value system that you are talking about, of tough guys, and
dog-eat-dog - that's top down stuff that has to be challenged by taking these
more bottom up approaches. I consider
what you are describing - the need for community, the need for helping each
other - those are bottom up ways of people getting along with each other that
flies in the face of, "I can do it better, and I'm gonna compete harder and
stronger!" I think that that's really
where we need to be moving with this.
So, are you making any headway, Jessie, in presenting this to
schools? Have schools invited you to
speak? Have school boards?
Jessie: Yeah, I have been speaking quite a bit at
different public schools and private schools and conferences. I'm definitely doing that kind of grassroots
work, and trying to help schools individually think about what it would mean in
their school to create compassionate community.
The research shows that while there might be one uniform homogenous
bully society, that the kind of compassionate communities that would be healing
and supportive are different, depending on what people are involved. People really need to figure out for
themselves what is the best way to create community in an individual school and
individual neighborhood, and make that specific to their own needs, so I've
been doing that kind of grassroots work quite a bit.
Rob: Are there some examples of schools or school
districts that are doing it?
Jessie: Yes. I
think there is a wonderful program called the Get a Voice Project, led by Laurie Mandell. She is a junior high school art teacher in
Murphy High School on Long Island. She
has created a program called Collective
Courage, where she trains teachers to teach kids to stand up for one
another if anybody is having a hard time.
She talks about examples where a sixth grader tells a third grader not to
sit in a particular seat on the bus, and people come right over to them right
away and say, "Why can't he sit there?
He should be able to sit there."
Other people will come up and say, "Yes.
Anybody should be able to sit wherever they want." It's very exciting, because the idea is one
person by themselves may not be willing to intervene, because that is scary and
potentially dangerous, but if you create a school where there is a collective
courage where you are confident that there will be other people that will
support the good values, everybody benefits.
In this case, the people who defended the kid felt good, the kid that
was defended felt good. The bus, of
course, has been a site of discrimination throughout history: who gets to sit
in the front or the back of the bus, and so it shows us how bullying becomes a
civil rights issue and needs to be addressed as such, so that minor civil
disobedience can make very big waves.
Rob: "Bullying as a civil rights issue." That sounds like something that legislators
could get their teeth into. Is there any
legislation, has there been any, has any model legislation been written about
dealing with bullying as a civil rights issue?
Jessie: I think a lot of the state policies try to
talk about diversity and raising awareness of diversity. It's more common in European countries for
there to be national policies that try to address bullying. I think we have had a much harder time in our
country having national policies of that nature. But I think it is important;
so much bullying has to do with, "Are you more poor? Are you wealthier? What race are you? What ethnic background are you? What sexual identity are you?
Transgender?" There are so many ways
that differences are exploited and people are hurt because they are perceived
as different; so I think most bullying relates to civil rights issues just like
any other kind of abuse around prejudice.
Rob: OK. Anything you want to wrap this up with?
This is very interesting.
Jessie: I appreciate you inviting me. I appreciate the conversation. I don't always
get to talk at such depth, and I think you are right about how far these ideas
need to go, and I think everybody can do something on an individual level by
creating more space for one another, by not following the scripts of, "Hi. How are you?
Fine," but actually being present. I think schools can do a tremendous
amount by creating more community, bonding, and helping students connect with
one another, faculty connect with one another.
But, I think you are right: the conversation needs to be heard at a
higher level as well, and I'll certainly think about that after we finish
talking.
Rob: One last question: What can
listeners or readers, once this is transcribed, do personally in their
communities, in their schools, with their kids, to get some of the changes you
are talking about happening?
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