Rob Kall: So, you
know - I have to say, I've got a list of questions here. Well, let me hold back. How does this disorder relate to evil?
Donald Black: That's an
interesting question, and I do address that in the book. I basically sidestep the issue by saying,
"Evil is a philosophical or religious concept that, in my view, has no place in
medicine or Psychiatry." Certainly
people commit acts that you or I might call evil. For example: Osama bin Laden and the Twin
Tower disaster of 2001. That was an evil
act. I think most people would say that
is the probably about the most evil thing someone could do, and then we saw him
on videotape laughing about it.
Thousands of people dead, and then he's laughing about it. I characterize that as evil. Or, think of a serial killer like Ted Bundy
or John Wayne Gacy, who was torturing or murdering someone essentially for his
own twisted pleasure. That to me is
evil. However, as a psychiatrist, I
don't use that term in my daily practice, and I wouldn't encourage my trainees
to use it either, because it has religious and/or philosophical connotations
that I don't think are appropriate for mental health professionals to be
discussing.
Rob Kall: That's
fair enough in terms of talking about Psychiatry; but you're an expert on
sociopathy, so I'm kind of asking you also from the perspective of culture, and
the perspective of how evil is conceptualized.
It just seems to me that evil is perpetrated by sociopaths.
Donald Black: Well, a
lot of it is, but then you could argue that Osama bin Laden does not meet the
definition of a sociopath, because he doesn't have all of the cardinal symptoms
that we would expect for that disorder,
including a history of childhood misconduct.
So even non- anti-social people can commit evil acts. Now, I do make the argument in my book that
Saddam Hussein probably was a sociopath and would have met our definition. We have specific criteria that we use to make
the diagnosis, because he has a documented history of misbehavior going back to
early childhood, and continuing until the time that he was (essentially) caught
and incarcerated.
Rob Kall: Another
thing you say in your book is, "They rebel against every type of regulation and
expectation, seemingly oblivious to the value of living within societies
boundaries. Despite all sanctions,
parental punishment, ostracism, failure, or jail, they remain stuck in a rut of
bad behavior."
Donald Black: Yes, absolutely. They don't like rules, they don't like
regulations, and they don't seem to learn from the bad consequences of their
behavior. They are stuck in that rut
that they can't seem to get out of. Now,
as some of them get older they do seem to climb out of that rut, because
anti-social behavior in general tends to subside as people get older. It's unclear why. Maybe they're more mature, maybe they're just
too tired to act out, who knows; but they do tend to improve over time.
Rob Kall: Now, that
description, somebody "resisting regulations and expectations," it can also
apply to protestors, dissidents. And in
other countries, sometimes dissidents have been jailed under psychiatric
pretexts.
Donald Black: Yeah.
Rob Kall: How do you
reconcile that idea, that people who protest, people who engage in civil
disobedience and get themselves arrested are -- how do you separate the
protestors from the sociopaths?
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