And I really believe that this is why we need true regulatory intervention at this time. And we're at a very unique moment when it comes to these issues. We have a large-scale agreement across the American population, and actually, in many cases, around the world, to do something about these issues with Big Tech.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Chris Hedges, not all speech in this country is, to say the least, simply allowed. I mean, you're not supposed to be able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, for example. As you pointed out, you yourself have been warning for years about American fascism. How does President Trump, the support for this insurrection, not fall into that category for you?
CHRIS HEDGES: Because he doesn't specifically call for violence. And, you know, this goes back to the attempt on the state of Mississippi to go after the NAACP for violence that had been carried out, trying to blame the NAACP for this violence. And it went all the way up to the Supreme Court, I think, 1982. And they ruled, essentially it was a unanimous decision that this kind of speech, the kind of speech that Trump laid out, is actually protected, and even if it results in violence, they can't go after the person who carried out that speech. So, if you give a strong that case said that if you give a strong speech against segregation and that there is some kind of violence carried out, you're not responsible.
So, I think that I would love to see Trump impeached. Ralph Nader and Bruce Fein have drawn up a list of 12 real impeachable offenses, not just a shakedown of the Ukraine. But, of course, I think the Democratic Party has been complicit in this administration. They could have impeached Trump the first week just on the Emoluments Clause alone, the perpetuation of nine wars, if we count Yemen, that were never declared by Congress. But they didn't do it, because they saw Trump as a fundraising tool. The media has made tons of money off of Trump. Again, as was pointed out, the digital platforms love Trump as essentially keeping people on their platforms again, profit-driven.
And now we've ended up, in the final week of the Trump administration, with people attempting to respond to the deterioration of the American political system and the judiciary and the checks and balances and everything else. But I think that, clearly, if we kind of coldly read what Trump said to his supporters, he didn't call for people to break into the Capitol and take people hostage.
AMY GOODMAN: Certainly, he and his family, in just the speeches alone at this rally, as he talked about he would be with them, but, of course, then he sneaked back to the White House and was not with them, but they talked about "trial by combat." They talked about getting Republicans who were not standing up for Trump. And you see all of the responses. As he watched what took place, the massive violence at the Capitol, Trump tweeted, "We love you. You're special people."
Ramesh Srinivasan, what do you want to see, as you support Trump being banned permanently from Twitter, to come from this? What do you see happening? Also, Stripe has said they won't process his credit cards. You've got Shopify, which he uses. You know, money matters, to say the least, to Trump. And you've got Reddit, you've got Snapchat, you've got YouTube all of these taking Trump down.
RAMESH SRINIVASAN: Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that the solution to this issue and any future issues comes from hoping that Twitter does the right thing. Twitter has decided to ban Trump, and the other tech companies are now cutting bait with Trump, because it's just gone a step too far, and they all recognize the Biden administration is incoming.
I really think that what we need to do is, long before we get to this point, have public audit, public intervention and public accountability into technology companies. So, you know, this is what I've been calling a Digital Bill of Rights. But basically what I'm talking about here is, we need to have full disclosure over what is being collected about us, how that which is being collected about us is influencing what we see. We need to have the ability for third parties to have audit, you know, continuous audit, over these technology platforms. We need to rein in some aspects, not fully, of Section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act, which basically provides online content providers, basically, no liability, just full protection to post and publish whatever they wish to. But long before we get to this point, any pieces of content, for example, that are likely to go viral, or that the tech companies are going to make go viral, should be there should be some kind of audit kind of process. And these algorithms are thriving, that power all of these systems, thrive on amplification, spectacle and disinformation. And they really need to be reined in and transformed in the interest in the public interest, in the democratic interest.
But also, to my point earlier, technology companies are not simply about our political lenses into the world, but are also deeply influencing issues of economic justice and social justice. And we have to ensure, because the internet was publicly funded, that all of these tech companies are resting upon publicly funded infrastructure that was based on all of us paying for, that they are publicly accountable. They have to be dedicated to the public interest. And we have to do everything we can, especially at this time when there's a lot of attention on this issue, to push something that is far more progressive than just, you know, hoping for some good step to be taken here and there when it's self-serving.
AMY GOODMAN: Before we go, Chris Hedges, the judge ruling over Julian Assange's extradition case has just denied him bail. The decision came two days after the judge rejected a U.S. bid for his extradition. The WikiLeaks founder must stay in prison while the U.S. appeals the decision. Your latest article is headlined "The Empire Is Not Done with Julian Assange." We just have a minute, but talk about the significance of what's taken place in Britain right now, the judge ruling he will not be extradited to the United States.
CHRIS HEDGES: Because of health risk, because she feels he could commit suicide, there's that potential, in the barbarity of the prison system.
But on every other point, every other charge, she agreed with the U.S. prosecutors. And that's ominous, because, in essence, she legitimized, legally, the right of the American government to seize anyone Julian Assange is not a U.S. citizen; WikiLeaks is not a U.S.-based publication who publishes U.S. secrets, and carry out extraordinary rendition to haul them back to the United States.
It's clear that they are going to let him sit in this high-security prison. Remember, he's being held there on a bond issue, a bail issue. He should have been out a long time ago. He is physically and psychologically in a very precarious state. And I think there's a lot of people who feel that they're going to just keep him locked up there, because the U.S. will appeal for months and months, until he disintegrates physically and emotionally.
AMY GOODMAN: We have 20 seconds, Chris Hedges. What you want to see right now?
CHRIS HEDGES: What's that?
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