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Greg Wilpert
Well I think that's one of the things, of course, that every time there's some kind of coming together,
there does seem to be a demand that we need a different solution in the long term. At least some
people on the left have been proposing for some kind of redistribution as a solution, as a response to
really Trumpism. In other words, that we can't go back to a neo-liberal status quo ante that we had
under Obama. But you also said that this kind of a global Keynesianism and reformist program can't be a
long term solution, and I'm wondering, well, explain, why do you think that's not a longer-term solution?
Because clearly some of these economists that I was referring to do think it is.
William Robinson
Right, well, it's more of a longer-term solution than global police state, more than fascism, but it's not a
long term solution because as long as we have capitalism, the impulse for simply for any economic
activity to take place, for people to be able to go into a factory, to a plantation, to a mine, to a service
center, and work, has to be profitable.
That is what drives capitalism. You have to accumulate, everything has to be profitable, everything has
to be commodified, and unless states are able to suppress enough of the drive to accumulate capital to
override its most, you know, its most glaring impulse, then this is not viable. But we don't have a global
state. In other words, what I'm trying to say is that in order for a global Keynesianism or a global
redistribution to take place, you need to massively tax transnational capital, and you need to be able to
capture surpluses.
Right? States need to be able to capture surpluses, and states then need to redistribute those surpluses
downward through social spending, and public employment, and so forth and so on. But there's no
global state. So that takes place at the level of the nation-state. But capital has gone transnational.
That's the key, you know, one of the key theoretical premises of my whole theory of global capitalism,
that as capital broke free of the nation-state in the late 20th century in order to get around the ability of
mass social movements, of trade unions, of workers struggles, to control capital. That was what we had
in from the 1960s and 50s, 60s and 70s and on, we had mass social movements, mass workers struggles,
forcing capital to be heavily taxed, and heavily regulated, heavily controlled.
And that was the nation-state Keynesianism. So capital wants to break out of that, to resume its profit-
making, and its profit maximization, and it launches globalization. It breaks free of the nation-state. And
so, unless there's some political power that can clamp down on transnational capital now to implement
that, a global Keynesianism program, it's going to be very, very untenable. So certainly, if we can find
those mechanisms, of some of the worst edges of the crisis can be ameliorated, not just in the short
term, but maybe in the mid-term.
But then there's the other issue of the ecological crisis, the existential crisis. And even if, let's say,
stagnation were temporarily overcome through a global Keynesianism, and the global economy, you
know, started to stabilize with high growth rates, we're still headed towards this ecological collapse and
absolute disaster. And that brings the ability of a global Keynesianism within the logic of capital
accumulation to a more tenuous situation.
Greg Wilpert
Now, it seems to me though, that, of course, if you're talking about kind of an anticapitalist solution, a
socialist solution to the crisis that we're facing, at least if they happen on a national level, they would
face the same problem of transnational capital.
In fact, you can say that every time a country, no matter where, has tried that kind of a national kind of
solution or anticapitalist option, it failed precisely because it was still embedded in the global capitalist
system. Now, does that mean then that the only thing that's really an alternative is a global socialism?
And if so, how do we get there?
William Robinson
No, yeah, really great question. Well, of course, that's the story of the last four decades, that as capital
went global, individual nation-states cannot really design their own political-economic system. And the
first big, you know, the first time that lesson was brought home was 1983, when Franà §ois Mitterrand
(past president of France) came to power. He came I think in 82, and in 83, he had completely reversed
his initial social-democratic program of taxing capital, and redistribution, and expanding the social
welfare state in France.
That was the famous example that even a rich country like France, one of the core countries of the
world system, had to simply bow down to the demands of transnational capital in the early 1980s, so
much less Venezuela, Cuba, any country in the world can simply create its own internal system and
resist the pressures of transnational capital. Its global financial markets and the global investors that
now dictate policies and restrict anything that a particular country or nation-state can do absolutely.
And so, again, that's the story of the last 40 years of capitalist globalization. But what this means is that
if we're talking about a fight back, if we're talking about solutions, it has to be transnational. And so we
need transnational struggle. I mean, I've been talking about this for the last 30 years, but I'm not alone
now anymore. Everyone's talking about the urgent need for national struggles to be coordinated
transnationally, for transnational social movements, transnational programs that we agree on across
borders and fight for.
I mean, this discussion is not new. The Progressive International is this forum that I'm sure many
listeners are familiar with. It was formed earlier this year, sort of not to replace, but to move beyond
what remains of the World Social Forum. And this time it includes political organizations, not just social
movements. And this time it's talking about a actual platform, a collective platform of struggle across
borders. So that's the direction we need to be moving in. And I'm going to say something which has
been said over and over for the last 30 years, if capital has transnationalized, resistance to it has to.
But that means coordinating struggles across borders. So when capital moves from one place to
another, and finances move from one place to another, that there's coordinated resistance and a
coordinated response. So, again, that's what everyone is talking about, and that's a very positive sign
with the progressive international.
Greg Wilpert
OK, well, I think that's a very good note to end on. We've covered a lot of ground in a very broad sense,
but I think it was really an excellent discussion, and I highly recommend everybody to read the book.
"The Global Police State." I was speaking to William Robinson, professor of sociology at UC Santa
Barbara, and author of that book, "The Global Police State", published by Pluto Press. Thanks again, Bill,
for having joined me today.
William Robinson
Thanks so much for having me on.
Greg Wilpert
And once again, I'm Greg Wilpert, guest host for theAnalysis.news podcast. If you liked this and other
theAnalysis.news podcasts, please head over to our website and make a donation so we can keep this
going. Thanks again for having tuned in today.
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