HARJEET SINGH: Absolutely. Let's look at what happens when you are hit by a climate crisis. One incident can wipe out development gains over the last decades. They don't have money to invest into development because all their money gets diverted in providing relief. So they will always and then they are forced to take a loan from the same system that is responsible for the climate crisis. So they will always remain in debt. Poor people will end up repaying that debt that their governments are forced to take, because there is no system that exists that recognizes that climate crisis is making it worse for these people who are not even responsible for this emergency situation. And the money that should have gone to education, to health, to better their infrastructure is now going to provide food, is now going to provide relief material and reconstruct their homes over and over again. So, these poor countries will never be able to come out of that debt trap that they are put in.
AMY GOODMAN: But what does this have to do with the United States? Explain. I mean, in the past, the United States was running all sorts of side panels here. Now there is almost no obvious presence in terms of that to the outside public. But explain what it is they're doing behind the scenes. And then, next year well, I think it's a day after Election Day the U.S. is formally out. We'll see who will be the president then, but they won't be president yet, which means next year in Glasgow, COP26, will the U.S. not be present at all? And would you say that's better than what they're doing right now?
HARJEET SINGH: Absolutely. Right now U.S. is in all streams of discussions that are happening, be it finance, be it loss and damage, be it adaptation. They're everywhere. And everywhere they are obstructing and not allowing any progress to happen, and particularly on finance. Now, when we talk about this system that should provide money to climate survivors, they don't want that system to be created. And this demand is not a new demand. Vanuatu, on behalf of small island states, made the demand for the first time in 1991. It took us 22 years to set up a mechanism, called Warsaw International Mechanism for Loss and Damage, in Warsaw in 2013, which had a very clear function: to mobilize finance and help these countries. Last six years, constant bullying and blocking by United States, joined by Australia and even European Union, did not allow even a group to be created that can discuss what the needs are, what the gap is, how money can be mobilized. And that bullying continues at this very moment.
So this year is important. That body, Warsaw International Mechanism, is being reviewed. There is a critical opportunity to re-look at whether it is fit for purpose. The disasters that we are facing is because of 1-degree Celsius temperature rise. And we are going towards 3-degree, which does not mean three times the impacts. The impacts are going to be much more. Is this body fit for purpose? Is it able to help people, for people who are suffering climate emergency right now in Mozambique and other parts of Africa? No, it's not. So, how do we re-look at this body? How do we bring in finance, which is much more needed for these communities? But U.S. is busy protecting the interest of its own administration and polluting industries, so that they can never be held liable for the crisis they have caused. And U.S. is the biggest historical emitter, which means the largest country responsible for this crisis.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Harjeet, Article 6, explain what this is. I think so often the jargon here prevents people from having access or understanding the very real consequences of climate catastrophe in the world.
HARJEET SINGH: So, to put it simply, Article 6 is about how to get private sector involved and how markets are going to play in reducing emissions. This is the only piece that is hanging from the Paris rulebook that was finalized last year. So the interest of developed countries is, mobilize money from private sector in a manner where they don't have to invest money. But from the developing country side, it's really important to see much more public financing coming in, and the rules that are set for private companies are robust enough so that there is no leakage or loopholes. And there is a danger of these emission reduction targets being double counted, if we don't put the right rules in place.
And there is also a bigger challenge of human rights. You know, today is a Human Rights Day, and we see how these companies have been continuously violating human rights. So, we really have to make sure that people's human rights are not violated by these private companies. For them, the sole motive remains making profit. And we have seen how these corporations have ruined the planet, that they always have profit over planet. So, it's really important to make sure that the so-called carbon markets or carbon trading is fair.
AMY GOODMAN: Asad Rehman, say more about these carbon markets.
ASAD REHMAN: So, as you said, often we talk about all of these terms, and there's a lot of jargon. So let's break it down very, very simply. Right? We know what the climate scientists have told us. We now see it with our eyes about what's happening around the world. That's all happening at 1 degree. Climate scientists have told us we can't breach the 1.5-degree guardrail, and they say that there's a certain amount of carbon that's left that we're allowed to pollute. Actually, if you look at the climate science report, it says, really, there's about five years of budget left right? if you want prevent that breach 10 years, if we want to be generous.
And what's happening here now is rich developed countries, not just the United States, but Australia, Canada, backed by the European Union, not only don't want to cut their own emissions, not only don't want to provide finance that they promised, not only don't want to help the most impacted people, but now want a get-out-of-jail card. And this is what Article 6, the carbon markets are, because what it basically says is, "I won't have to cut my emissions, but I can pay somebody else, and you cut your emissions, and I will count it as if I cut my emissions," as if there is a never-ending magic box of carbon pollution that we're allowed to do. It is not possible. If a country like, for example, the United Kingdom or the United States, their fair share of effort would be at something like minus-200 by 2030, there is simply no carbon that you can use for an offset. And that's taking away the issue around the environmental integrity, because 10 years ago we had an argument, in these very negotiations, about carbon markets, and developing countries and civil society absolutely rejected them. They said they do not deliver emissions reductions. They'll lead to huge human rights violations. They allow profit for private companies and nothing to ordinary people.
But what's most pernicious here is that as the United States and other developed countries block any progress on the finance conversation, on the help on loss and damage, what they're saying to developing countries is, "If you agree to the carbon markets, maybe in there we will give you some share of the profit." And so, what developing countries are left with is that is the only thing that's left on the table. They know it won't deliver emissions reductions. They know it will be devastating the planet. But for much-needed finance, that's the carrot that's being dangled. It is an absolutely outrageous decision. And ministers, as they are meeting here, will hold developing countries to hostage, because they will say, "We will only allow conversations about much-needed loss and damage if you allow us to have the carbon markets decision go through."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to break, then come back to our discussion. Asad Rehman is executive director of War on Want, usually in London. Harjeet Singh, global lead on climate change at ActionAid, usually in New Delhi, India. When we come back, Asad Rehman will also talk about the explosive Washington Post series on the history of the U.S. war in Afghanistan, and we'll talk more about what's happening here and what's happening in Britain. The elections come up on Thursday there, and, well, we'll find out what's happening and also the major players there, the candidates' position on the climate crisis. Stay with us.
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