Steve

'The corrupt and mafia government of Mr. Karzai and its international guardians, are playing shamelessly with the intolerable suffering of Afghan women and misuse it as their propaganda tool for deceiving the people of the world.'

This quote  you gave and then... who is Mr. Karzai? Our Puppet. Who are his guardians? We are. And then you  say after that that WE have to take all those women from  men in another country because....? Steve, you lost me.

Steve, you personally are welcome to open your doors to any Afghan woman you please and sponsor a person. I do not want to disappoint you but I am sure if that happens she would eventually want to bring in her  man ( husband, father, brother, child) and live with him although he most likely would be full of those cruel tendencies you resent so much. And if you do not want to help her you would be ( and that would serve you right) the most cruel human being on Earth.

Steve, people are not pets. You cannot invoke laws about cruelty to foreign women and then enforce those by offering those women an asylum from their world. It is their world, their men, their children. Those men do not deserve them? None of your damned business, sorry. You do not live there, among those men. You  have never been in their shoes, not even close. Our troops are there illegally, they are  just  protecting the  drug smugglers. We better  see to our women and our children.

Hey, Steve, in 1920s the Communists in  Asian Russia did just that. They were so  enraged by the way women were treated that not only they openly decreed them to be free but forbade the paranjas and burkas, opened the doors to divorces, punished the abusers and let women be educated. Hey. in 1970s they offered the same to the Afghani women, BTW. You here responded with  creating Osama Bin Ladin.  But I digress. In 1920s- 30s the Asian Russia rejoiced in revival.  But then the govt  asked for the pay. That pay was the destruction of the way of life, the cruel repressions against ALL, the transformation of the society which did not want to be transformed, the forceful bondage of the nations, horrible loss of life, corruption, underground economy and eventual local dictatorship which  came out to be much more cruel than any previous one.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

K. Marx

by Mark Sashine (47 articles, 19 quicklinks, 235 diaries, 3360 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 9:03:45 AM
 

I find a total disconnect between what I wrote and your resp

response. I said they should be granted asylum IF THEY WANT IT.

I also find your attempt to personalize this by suggesting I sponsor someone to be nothing more than a meaningless stunt. I'm suggesting a massive policy shift that would involve the granting of asylum by several dozen countries to dozens of millions of people and you talk about me sponsoring someone.

Then you return to talking about people not being pets when I clearly said that this is only for people who want it, i.e., nothing like pets that are owned beings.

Nor am I saying that we necessarily have to force changes in the way things are happening in Afghanistan as you talked about regarding the communists in the 1920s, etc. If men are determined to have that sort of environment and there re women who WANT to live in it, let them stay. Those women who dont should be given asylum.

by Steven Leser (193 articles, 38 quicklinks, 32 diaries, 1299 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 10:28:10 AM
 

American Women should be granted Asylum in Afghanistan

Hello Steve & Mark 

 Steve, you are in way over your head. Mark has made several statements that are right on. I can see also that his outrage (mark?) is so extreme or pronounced that it prevents him from offering something that might be more educational.  Believe me, (mark) when I read this editorial opinion this earlier this morning I felt that deep outrage as well. 

But the mere fact that  you dont see what Mark's post has to do with what you wrote is a symptom of the problem. I call it -- and please don't misinterpret this statement to mean that I am immune to it -- American obliviousness. It is white supremacy. It is ORIENTALISM (Edward Said). 

Clearly the original post comes from a place of concern for people. However, it ends up being a rather aggressive position for a man from the United States to take vis-a-vis Afghanistan. The gender issue is indeed a problem in Afghanistan, but so is it here in the United States where rape and mysogyny are completely off the charts -- almost institutionalized behind "family values" and Christian and Jewish fundamentalism.

Thats what you need to talk about Steve, don't you think? Or maybe you should first be addressing the alleged connections between RAWA and the Pakistani intelligence ISI? Or maybe you should be addressing the uranium weaponry and torture operations and rape by US Special Forces and maybe you should attack Atlantic Monthly for their deceptive advertisements by Lockheed Martin mixed in with fascist militaristic nationalist (US) articles feeding these stereotypes that you have responded to with your article.

Becuase what your article amounts to is a very nasty nationalism that revolves around the political economy of gender and women's rights. This is a tool of statecraft used by, for example, human rights watch.

You have played right into it. I won't assume that you have not been to Afghanistan -- but I would bet you haven't --  and if you have this article is doubly problematic. 

Have you seen the book AFGHANISTAN AFTER DEMOCRACY by Mohammed Miraki?

You need to read it right away. http://www.afghanistanafterdemocracy.com/

 And to do the right thing you need -- we all need -- to support Mohammed Miraki. 

If you'd like to correct the record I would be happy to work with you on an article which lays out the real problem in Afghanistan. And that is based out of the permanent warfare economy of the United States. The US (UK, Israel) is perpetrating a genocide on Afghan people through the Uranium weaponry and radiation poisoning. 

Please put your compassion and intelligence to work now to produce an article which does not blame the victims (Afghan people) for their own suffering and corrects the record. 

 blessings

keith harmon snow

www.allthingspass.com 

by keith harmon snow (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 11:47:03 AM
 

Thanks

for the support although I  do not advocate any women to get asylum anywhere:) I advocate restrain and common sense.  The idea of giving  people ( and women are people) a choice ( enforced by force) to leave their homeworld( and how will that choice be executed? She goes alone? or with children?  With Property or without?) is  really a very American thing.  If an American does not like something  he wants to eliminate that something, play with that something to death or  ' do something to that something'. I  am not really mad anymore: Steven Leser is an honest man and he  as many honest, nice, clear Americans  considers his honesty a  unique feature thus entitling him to project it   in its genuine form on others. 

Women and men are inseparable and the tragedy in Afgahnistan is the tragedy of the people.  Gender problems   are there and here and in Russia and in Ethiopia and everywhere  the last thing you want is to  come from outside and 'give a choice'.

And BTW, I did not see anything bad in my suggestion to offer a sponsorship. That can be done and it might do good but the problems I had listed are real.

by Mark Sashine (47 articles, 19 quicklinks, 235 diaries, 3360 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 12:02:33 PM
 

Nope, you are not even close to being right

you and Mark are both looking at this much too narrowly. I really dont care whether the genocide and abuse are happening in Asia, Africa, Europe or the Americas. And I really dont care if it is women, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Tutsis, or any other group. A country that is abusing its citizens has lost the right to have those citizens and deserves to have them taken from them.

There is nothing remotely compelling in anything that either of you are saying that in any way detracts from that argument.

by Steven Leser (193 articles, 38 quicklinks, 32 diaries, 1299 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 12:07:30 PM
 

Then we should all vaporise

because there is no  such thing as a ' country which abuses its citizens'. One group of citizens abuses another one. In many countries where this does not happen on your watch, Steve and thus they are safe from your punishment for now that is because they had abused their victims to death or to total submission and disappearance.

And to set the record straight: Communists in 1920s  did not do it violently. They were dearly concerned and did their best ( BTW, they did not offer those women just to leave like you want it). They worked with families and groups, etc.  But  the original perception that they knew better what would be the best for those people  killed the whole thing.

It is very  difficult to find a black cat in the dark room especially when there is no cat- say the Chinese. Steve, there is no cat. There is a very dark room.

by Mark Sashine (47 articles, 19 quicklinks, 235 diaries, 3360 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 12:18:57 PM
 

Violence and Women

When I read the title of this article I immediately thought, "Wow, what a great idea!" 

I read it.  I read the comments - from a male author and two male readers, and decided to throw in my opinion which, necessarily, has to be from the perspective of a woman.

For 12 years I volunteered as a rape victim advocate in my community.  When I burned out I turned to community mediation - which I am still doing as a volunteer with my local police department.  Three years ago, I began volunteering as a domestic violence intervention advocate with the same police department.  I have a long, long history of working with victims of assault.

 It isn't just Afghanistan, as was noted.  It's everywhere, even in my community in northwestern Oregon.  This kind of abuse against women - whatever form it takes - relies heavily on a sense of male entitlement to dominate females and on females being taught, and accepting, that this is the way it should be.

There are no easy solutions.  People like me who work with victims of abuse spend a lot of time EDUCATING them about their rights as women and as human beings.  All the education in the world, though, won't make a difference until victims translate what they know to be true (intellectual understanding) into action (believing deeply).  In other words, they need to learn to "walk the talk" as one victim recently pointed out to me.

On the surface it would be nice to spirit all the abused women to another place, a safe place where their rights will be completely respected.  But, in this world, I am not sure such a place exists.  There are degrees of safety and opportunity for women, but there are still too many people of both sexes running around loose who have not figured out that a person is, first and foremost, a human being and acknowledges there are rights due him/her.

 There are a men out there who need educating, too.  The impossible dream is to make this a safe world for everyone.

Education, acknowledgment and "walk the talk" - for, and by, all of us.

 Diane

by Diane Cadonau (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 11 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 1:26:45 PM
 

Thank you, Diane.

I don't know of any city in the U.S. where females are not prostituted openly, where there are no homeless females, where females are not raped, beaten, or killed by their male partners. I certainly wouldn't advocate bringing Moslems to the U.S. at this point in time -- you might as well ship them directly to Guantanamo, as Moslems are not being treated very well in the U.S. these days.

As it happens, I HAVE lived in Afghanistan, and females certainly couldn't bring their property with them if they came here, as females in Afghanistan are considered to BE property and are therefore not allowed to own any property themselves. But then here in the U.S. many husbands, boyfriends, and pimps, consider females to be their property also.

Patriarchy, the subjugation of females by males, is a core problem in most of the world. Where equality exists, we are an ecologically viable species, able to control our population growth in accordance with available resources. Where patriarchy exists, we are a nonviable species subject to regular biological cycles of overpopulation and die-offs like any other nonviable species. After a big die-off like WWII, life becomes precious for a few generations. Then we forget and we enter the next overpopulation peak where life is cheap, genocides common, and another die-off occurs.

The few exceptions to this rule, like the Scandinavian countries, are considered to be anomalies, but it is a fact that the more gender equity, the better the standard of living for EVERYONE in a given country.

And how would Afghan females, most of whom do not speak English, have never been to school, and have never seen an electric stove or a vacuum cleaner, earn a living in the U.S.? In case you haven't noticed, Steven, it has been a long time since the average U.S. household could get by with only one wage-earner.

If you want some outrage, take a look at what is happening to females in the Democratic Republic of Congo, primarily because U.S.-based multinational corporate interests have identified valuable natural resources there. Or just look at how nonviolent female first-time offenders are treated in U.S. jails and prisons. Steven, I think you said that you lived in Queens. Take a little walk and give a dollar or two to each of the first dozen or so homeless females you encounter, and then go home and rethink importing some more unskilled females. For less than $25 you can gain an entirely new perspective.

by Mark E. Smith (21 articles, 29 quicklinks, 77 diaries, 978 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 2:16:24 PM
 

Scandinavians

were not always that way and even now they treat women  who are not Scandinavian very much differently.  Russian women 'imported' there know better. One of the bitter disappointments is England where women -minorities are brutally exploited.

Oh, come on, people-don't we all understand  that there can be one abused person , female, male or child  but when we talk culture- ALL people are in it and we cannot make one part of the population happy while making everyone else miserable. That will be  national rape.  Nations are raped now like Iraq or East Timor.  

What I am saying  is that it is not just  'women being badly treated'. It is a miserable life there.  And do not forget- nobody tells you how men are mistreated,  how they are beaten, tortured, mutilated, how boys are abused, how  young boys are beaten in front of their fathers and mothers.... etc.

Folks, I love you all  but I was a refugee myself and you would be amazed how quickly people stop being human under  even slightly tough conditions.

by Mark Sashine (47 articles, 19 quicklinks, 235 diaries, 3360 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 2:30:00 PM
 

I get it

I read original article several times and kind of got it..was not offended or upset. It is a point of view. Not everything is political.

My two cents directed to the lone woman who responded  is that women abuse women also... 

Humans are sometimes a bad lot and any idea that might alleve suffering is a good one. 

by Georgianne Nienaber (145 articles, 46 quicklinks, 13 diaries, 338 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 2:41:14 PM
 

Women Abuse Women

Absolutely correct.  And in my experience, especially in the area of domestic violence, women abuse their husbands/boyfriends.  It was a bit of an eyeopener for me the first time I worked with a male victim of domestic violence.  Harking back to the "walk the talk" bit, I understood on one level that a man could be victimized by a woman, but was not fully prepared to address his specific concerns.  We learn, each and every day, if we're willing to watch and listen and evaluate what we see and hear.

 Diane

by Diane Cadonau (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 11 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 5:16:26 PM
 

INCREDIBLE AMERICAN ARROGANCE WE SUFFER FROM INDEED

Steve,

Mark makes the point well. And your resistance is exactly the problem. You are very absolute, and this is white privilege or whiteness. It is based on the idea that "I am absolutely right" and it leverages power behind the assumptions of justice and moral high ground. 

"I don't care what country it is" etc etc -- you are indeed espousing the new hegemonic AMERICAN doctrine of RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT.  This says that we (US) have the unchallengable right and authority tio intervene in any country where the "government" is not protecting its own people. Hence the hypocrisy-- it selectively challenges the crimes of some, and overlooks the crimes of others -- just as you are doing.

 There is nothing different from what you are saying and what GW BUSH and his terrorist cabal uses -- or What Clinton used in his terms -- to perpetrate terrorism around the globe (and at home). 

I appreciate very much the perspective of the woman (sorry this template wont let me see the name) commenter above as well. Thank you for all the work you did and do.

Let's  remember that the number one demographic being incarcerated in the United States is (poor) white women. (Then rape becomes easy by the criminal gatekeepers).  

I encourage people to read this story (below) becuase it addresses exactly what Mark and I have commented on -- and since you dont, Steve, care whether it is happening in Congo or whatever,  then you will find the example perhaps to be rather telling. Its the same story as Afghanistan, only different.

 THREE CHEERS FOR EVE ENSLER?

Propaganda, White Collar Crime, and Sexual Violence in Central Africa  

click here harmon snow 

by keith harmon snow (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 2:28:25 PM
 

TOUCHE

Mark

>>>If you want some outrage, take a look at what is happening to females in the Democratic Republic of Congo, primarily because U.S.-based multinational corporate interests have identified valuable natural resources there.<<

Did you read my story?  

touche.

keith 

by keith harmon snow (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 2:30:38 PM
 

Most of you still do not get it

Luckily, I repost my articles in a number of places to get a more balanced response. This is the only place where I have received this kind of reaction. That doesnt necessarily mean you guys are wrong as I am happy to stand on my own depending on the situation. It is your arguments that are awful that are the issue.

Someone chided me for wanting a quick solution! Um, yes, that is pretty much what is needed when a group is suffering the kind of persecution and abuse that is going on in Afghanistan. You all want to stand around in the thinkers pose like that group on the television commercial that is discussing the Heimlich maneuver while someone is choking.

It also is sad that some of you are so caught up in your ideological issues with the US and various other western countries that you can't stand the idea of these women or anyone else given asylum here. I'm reminded of that ship full of Jews attempting to flee Germany in the 1930's that was not allowed to land at any port and eventually had to go back to Germany (along with many other instances when Jews were refused permission to emigrate). Is that what you think is best? Leave these women in the equivalent of what 1930's 1940's Germany was for Jews?

I dont operate that way. Most of us have learned the lesson from that time period. Many of you clearly have not. There may be times when we simply cannot do something for a number of obvious reasons, i.e. no resources on the ground, militarily impossible, etc. But when you obviously have the ability to act and act quickly, and you persist in not doing something? I never thought I would see that in my lifetime. What can I say. You all have convinced me that crimes of apathy and indifference on the left can be as bad as the worst crimes of aggression on the right.

by Steven Leser (193 articles, 38 quicklinks, 32 diaries, 1299 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 3:31:31 PM
 

One other quick thing...

Once again in a situation like this, some people have posted that because they are a part of the class in question (women) their opinion may be more relevant.

As I indicated the last time, when the issue was regarding gays, I am not accepting of that proposition. If you think I am wrong, perhaps you can answer me if it is better or significantly different to be murdered because you are gay, Jewish or a woman? Here is a hint. It is a trick question.

I can definitely say, as someone from a mixed hispanic, Jewish, Christian and African & white descent that being murdered or tortured or discriminated against as a result of any one of those aspects of my heritage or beliefs would not feel different from any other.

by Steven Leser (193 articles, 38 quicklinks, 32 diaries, 1299 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 3:39:49 PM
 

YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN

Hello

Contrary to your American eat-the-propaganda-and bomb the towel-heads urgency, another symptom of the problem, and your blind assumptions, some of us have taken serious action to help the people of Afghanistan. I cannot say the same for you. Your action with this editorial opinion represents an obliviousness of the kind that (supposedly) got that British teacher arrested in Sudan for naming a teddy bear after the prophet Mohammed. You are however  responsible for your obliviousness. Instead of taking the opportunity to learn something and ask, hmmm what are these people talking about, you just plow onward. This is the problem with Americans. We are arrogant, blind to our arrogance, and unwilling to reflect on the possibility that we are the biggest problem of all. 

keith harmon snow

LITTLE SOMAN'S LITTLE WAR 

by keith harmon snow (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 5:03:51 PM
 

Steve,

Each of these attack comments on your article is called obfuscating. The way they do it seems to remind me the way the Bush Libertarians do it on this site. They try to change the subject from Afghanistan to the United States while attacking you in tandem. Women are abused in the US so it is all right for the men in Afghanistan to abuse the Afghanistan women. The abuse of beating women to death, stoning them to death, burying them alive for showing an ankle or forearm or just speaking to a man who is not a member of their immediate family, or trying to educate children is on the same scale of women being abused in America. Right!

Of course, part of the obfuscation is to never have an alternative to your argument. The next step will be to obfuscate by calling you names or trying to associate you with some group or person everyone would hate.

I suspect many of these not only have a hate for the likes of Bush which I do, also, but they have a deep hate and resentment toward the religious freedom and Bill of Rights we have in this country. More to the point, as you read comment after comment from the same people, one can ascertain they hate America which I do not.

There was nothing good about Communist Russia meaning the USSR or Communist China. Despite the blots on America's history, it is not the cancer found in almost every country around the world. It is why we must try to keep people out of this country, and it is not just the material opportunity in the United States drawing millions of people here; it is the freedom. No one was trying to get into the USSR and no one is trying to get into Afghanistan. It is a hell hole for women and was a hell hole at least fourteen hundred years before anyone ever heard of the Taliban. The Afghan women my not be our household pets, but they sure are not the Afghan men's cur dogs to be kicked around without anyone lifting a finger or saying a word to help them. You seem to be the only one saying a word on their behalf here.

Steven, thank you for writing your protest against the abuse of the Afghanistan women. Protest like this will never stop in our information age until men like the men in Afghanistan quit doing such terrible things to woman in the name of God. People not only hear about these horrific crimes against these women, but they see them in vivid detail. These horrible things are no longer hid from the outside world. Thank you again for this excellent artice that brings a national crime to our notice. I do not know if you have the right answer, but you are light years ahead of those who just throw smut without having answers.

If someone is not throwing smut at Steven, then this does not apply to you. If you are and it hits you dead center, so be it. In America the old saying is, "If the shoe fits wear it, if it does not quit crying."

Phil.

by pratliff94 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 948 comments) on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 8:17:17 PM
 

I Agree with additions

Steven appears to believe that bring Afghanistan women to The US will .

- Solve their problems, Like women abuse isn't rife in all countries around the world. Perhaps he should visit some big city shelters or sit in lower courts as an observer for a while, talk to the police in socially distressed areas.

- Is an improvement. This is like putting a few endangered species in zoos then patting ourselves on the back because we've done our bit to stop mass species extinction.