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December 27, 2008 at 06:58:38
Promoted to Headline (H3) on 12/27/08: by Steven Leser Page 1 of 1 page(s) 
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The economic disaster that I predicted back in April of 2008 in these articles click here and here is here. What enabled me to predict what was coming was my evaluation of five key areas of the economy. They are: What everyone should understand is that in exchange for the government spending that money, we would have an American consumer that was essentially out of debt and per the additional legislation would never again get in debt to the point that the indebtedness would endanger the whole country's economic health. Households would be able to spend money again, and all of those businesses that currently hold consumer debt accounts would receive a sudden and massive infusion of cash and would be paid for all of that debt. The totality of this program would result in a massive boost to the economy. Considering this, even the money that the Government would not receive back from consumers that it bailed out, it would likely receive back and more from the money that it injected into the economy generating business, income and retail taxes. Another great benefit of a consumer bailout is the mortgage crisis would be over. Households would own their homes free and clear and the banks would have been paid in full. Other organizations like Visa would be back in good financial health. Visa is currently hurting and requesting government assistance. Helping the consumer as I have outlined is the right way to help banks, business and the financial industry and the economy at large. Everyone wins this way.
1. Consumer savings and spending/ability to spend
2. Corporate income, health and spending/ability to spend
3. Government financial health and ability to spend
4. The lending and banking (and financial) system and its ability to extend credit
5. Inflation & scarcity of resources
I made the point that for the first time in American history, all five of these areas were problematic.
Looking at the same indicators now, eight months later, there are some real and some apparent changes. Number 4 - The lending, banking and financial system has been bailed out, but it is still reeling from the Lehman brothers’ bankruptcy, several bank failures, and the threatened failures or near failures of several more institutions. On the surface, Number 5, Inflation & scarcity of resources seems have improved. Indeed several news reports have suggested that Deflation is what is now the concern. This is an illusion.
The two main commodities driving up prices were energy and food, both because of supply fears. Both have come down in price/cost somewhat, energy in particular, but WHY have they come down in price. Is there suddenly more supply? No, there is no more supply. They are down due to a temporary decrease in demand. As soon as there is the beginning of a return to economic normalcy, and people start to use the additional income to consume, the price increases in both food and energy will return. The governments of the world should take NO action to try to deal with the apparent but temporary deflationary conditions.
Having stabilized the financial system and the auto industry with bailouts, the government should turn to the most critical economic issue, the one that really is threatening to make this a prolonged downturn and that is consumer savings, huge consumer debt and resulting inability for consumers and households to spend and buy goods and services. Businesses cannot survive without the consumer and yet the average household is completely broke and drowning in debt.
I conceived the idea for this article about a week ago and was dreading having to perform the requisite research into the actual numbers supporting my positions. Thankfully, another author on OpEdNews, James Quinn, wrote an excellent article that completely outlines just how terribly in debt the American Household now finds itself titled “The Great Consumer Crash of 2009.” Among his research, he found that "Household debt reached $13.8 trillion in 2007, with $10.5 trillion of that mortgage debt." He also had a chart that showed that the average household debt per person in 2007 was $47,000. As staggering as those numbers are, that was a year ago. It is likely that total household debt is now up to $15 Trillion Dollars.
This suggests several conclusions. First, as I said earlier, the consumer is too deep in debt to be the engine that this country needs to drive the country out of the recession/depression. Second, without intervention, consumer debt will stifle the country's productivity and economic growth for the next 5-10 years. Third, if the consumer is the main force that drives the economy and affects whether the economy grows or contracts (recession), but the consumer cannot power the economy because they are in debt, something has to be done to fix that. It's a slight alteration of the old Sherlock Holmes quote, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”. Turning the economy around with a broke consumer is impossible, so what remains? Bail out the consumer.
What would a Government Bailout of the Consumer Look Like?
The government bailout of the consumer that I am proposing dwarfs all other government bailouts to date. It probably is the largest government spending initiative by any measurement in the history of humankind. It involves the government offering to each consumer and household to pay all of their debt. In exchange, the consumers who agree to be bailed out will pay the government .125% more of their income in taxes each year for three years for every unit of debt that corresponds to one percent of their annual income up to a maximum of 12.5%. Let me illustrate:
Joe and Sally have a combined income of $100,000 per year. They have $60,000 in debt. They opt for a complete bailout of their debt. In return, they will pay an additional (60 x .125)% or an additional 7% in taxes for three years. So, the Government pays out $60,000, the government gets back $21,000 over three years (7% of Joe and Sally's $100,000 a year income or $7000 for three years), and Joe and Sally are debt free.
Another example is John. John makes $60,000 per year and has a mortgage of $150,000 and other debt of $8,000 of which $6,000 is taxes and $2000 is credit cards. John opts for the total bailout. The Government pays $158,000 and wipes out John's debt. John owes the government $7,500 additional in taxes each year for three years, or $22,500. Even though the Government paid more to bail John out, the payback is capped at 12.5% in additional taxes per year for three years.
There is another component to my proposal. The Government will pass legislation limiting the amount of credit that can be granted to consumers by percentage of annual income and type of debt so that the country will not again find itself in a position where a huge percentage of consumers are over leveraged. The government would also make it illegal to charge the kinds of percentage rates on credit cards we have seen in the past. Also, for those opting for the bailout, any negative reports on their credit ratings would be wiped clean.
The total potential Government bailout outlay is the total of household debt or $15 Trillion Dollars. Actual bailout total will be lower because although many consumers would opt for this bailout, many others would not depending on each households circumstances, so the total amount that the Government would put out would be considerably less than $15 Trillion, but it would not surprise me to see the amount exceed $5-8 Trillion, financed by Government bonds. The Government would get a percentage of that back in the temporary additional taxes I proposed, probably between 20% and 30% over three years. So, assuming that the Government outlays $5 Trillion for the bailout, it would get back $1 to $1.5 Trillion.
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The Government Has It Backwards
The govt should have begun by eliminating the Federal Reserve, the IRS and the personal income tax. The renters and owners of foreclosed properties should have returned as owners to their places of residence. The financial sector should be punished for their fraud. They pocketed the bail-outs without opening credit sources for consumers and small business owners. We can employ current regulations to curb corporate excess. We should fire most of our Federal employees and join the British Commonwealth of Nations. by Jason Paz (68 articles, 88 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1386 comments [97 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:54:29 AM  (0+)
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I'm a little leery of a general, total bailout for consumers
I can see some components of this as helpful in order to stabilize housing prices, and perhaps some assistance to consumers to tamp down the coming credit card defaults; but I don't see this strategy as leading to a self-sustaining recovery. Indeed, the instant recovery engendered by this plan would indulge consumers in an opportunity to ignore the lessons of how we arrived at this pass and give them little incentive to change the patterns with which they contributed to the problem. Yes, bankers were foolishly offering credit on too easy terms, but the other side of the transaction was consumers eagerly accepting it. Another problem with preserving the status quo would be that such a bailout, like the Bush administration's earlier "check to every taxpayer" scheme, would basically serve to weaken our balace of trade, particularly with regard to China and the Mid-eastern energy vendors, since there would be no change in consumer patterns. Such spending would generate the next bubble, with the predators circling as the checks went out. A truly self-sustaining recovery would, indeed be driven by consumer demand, but that is accomplished by returning people to work, improving infrastructure to streamline the movement of goods and people, as is planned, and providing for home grown "green" energy alternatives to stimulate the native manufacturing sector and slow the destruction of the environment. These efforts must be coupled with a consumer education initiative, that would show people the advantages of buying domestic products, which, of course, is the generation of domestic jobs. Every effort must have as its goal, or at least side effect, full domestic employment. A reasonable and competitive tariff and trade policy would be the third leg of the stool, and is something that we have not seen since Reagan came in. In any event, setting a banquet before someone suffering from malnutrition is ill-advised and could lead to further harm to the patient. They must be brought along gradually for a sustainable recovery. Sustainability will indeed be the watchword for our new century. by John Sanchez Jr. (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 25 diaries, 1791 comments [148 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:57:02 AM (0+)
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Reply: Please, dont miss the portion of my plan that includes new
legislation that would prevent this from happening again. The legislation would control how much credit could be extended to individuals and households based on their revenue stream and the type of credit. Without this, your point would be well taken, but this legislation would prevent people from overindulging in debt. The rest of your post is well taken. On DU and KOs, two important additional points have been raised. The very next steps after this was done with the accompanying legislation would be to institute a Universal Healthcare program and start work on making living wages for all a reality. Your ideas about infrastructure spending are something I would add to that. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:02:29 AM (0+)
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Reply: Consumer bailout
Why not just get the various governments together and wipe everyone's debt out period? Just declare that all debts are forgiven? by billiam (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 12 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:49:18 AM (0+)
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Reply: That would take down several layers of the economy
the banks, the credit industry, the insurers, the reinsurers, the bond market, etc. Also, I am not in favor of giving people a free pass for their debt. People have to pay around 30 points on the dollar give or take their situation. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:45:38 PM (0+)
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Reply: One well advised piece of legislation...
would be the proscription of banks issuing NINJA (no income, job, assets) credit of any kind. Another would mandate that credit card contracts be much more transparent and limiting the issuers ability to rewrite the terms on any whim without heavy penalties. A third essential is the revision of bankruptcy law so that it is equitable, without the provisions in it that now say, basically, "If you owe us, we own you until you don't owe us." by John Sanchez Jr. (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 25 diaries, 1791 comments [148 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:18:52 AM (0+)
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Reply: legislation
If legislation is passed to keep consumers from over indulging in debt I question how the legislation can be fair. If a person who is making $500,000/ year has monthly debts that require 30% of their income to pay off the debt, compared to a person who is making $25,000/year and has 30% of their month income to pay off the debt, the person making $500,000 should be allowed a greater debt allowance. However, if the person making the $500,000 / year with a 30% debt loses their job and the person making $25,000/year loses their job, the one making the $500,000/year causes the greatest drain to sociaety, thus we should keep the one making the most money out of the credit market. Sounds crazy, but that is what make legislating an impossible fairness to the consumer. by Chester Marzolf (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 16 comments) on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:06:21 PM (0+)
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700 billion dollars...
The government could hire 5 million people at $20,000 per year for 7 years. The government could effectively eliminate unemployment all together. by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:36:57 AM (0+)
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Reply: And you would be paying just enough for people to starve
$20K per year. It depresses me to think that people have to survive on that kind of a wage. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:47:11 PM (0+)
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Reply: It is well above minimum wage
No you will not be living the "high life", but you also will not be standing in an unemployment line or food line. Don't think for a second it can't happen to you. The Depresion was all about unemployment. Talk to someone that lived through it. by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59:10 PM (0+)
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Reply: I spent 18 months unemployed from 2001-2003 thank you
and I spent another 9 months earning less than 20K so I know exactly what I am talking about. And that was in one of the cheapest places to live in the US and it was STILL terrible. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:04:07 PM (0+)
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Reply: It's not enough...
...to support a family of 7, though... by Jill Herendeen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 213 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:08:58 PM (0+)
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Reply: BINGO!!! That describes our last 6 years.
Why do you think we went into such debt? Because our wages didn't cover our living expenses. DUH by Jill Herendeen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 213 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:06:06 PM (0+)
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Reply: $20.000/year
Steve, The problem with so many that are speaking out is they are out of touch with reality. I happen to know many who would be happy to be making 20,000/year and they are not starving and they are not homeless, they just live within a budget of what they earned. It would be grat if everyone was a millionaire until we were all millionaires and had to pay $60,000 for a loaf of bread. by Chester Marzolf (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 16 comments) on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:11:38 PM (0+)
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THIS IS NOT PART OF THEIR AGENDA
STEVEN great article and the past one to, but what I see is that the bailout money is not been put back into the system yet. This will most likely happen when OBAMA'S takes office, and this will flood the economy with so much money that you dollars will be worth 5 or 10 cents if that. buy 2009 we the people will be bagging for the government to help us, and they will, by OBAMA saying the only way to save the economy is switch to the new AMERO DOLLAR, and may be go with the NAU. THEIR PLANING FOR THE DOLLAR COLLAPSE IS ALMOST COMPLETE. All is needed is BOOTS ON THE GROUND. And they are training them as we speak. by MARGARET BASET (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 345 comments [45 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:49:28 AM (0+)
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Reply: just found this
by MARGARET BASET (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 345 comments [45 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:02:20 AM (0+)
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Transition from a consumer economy
While on the simplest of levels this would solve the immediate crisis--it does not address the reality that a 70% consumer economy is not sustainable for the future of the planet. Where in this plan do we recognize that--and begin to transition to a broader Full spectrum economy? There are 96 million people working within the 'consumer' economy--the extraction, production, consumption and profit cycle tied to that has to change. Bailing out the consumer is a temporary solution but we will need to transition the entire economy and develop new sectors of the economy where more and more of our work will occur. We need to be dialoguing on this new economy...not just fixing the one that has collapsed due to over production, greed, fraud, global warming, resource depletion etc. by Ann Kramer (21 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 62 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:59:50 AM (0+)
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PROFLIGATE AMERIKA
Why does this wastefull country that has spent all its money & more feel like it cant be poor like the rest of the world?? Go bailout someone who actually deserves it for instance the true starving people of the world. AMERIKA had its chance & blew it & now humble pie is yours to eat. by Markageloo Breza (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 15 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:04:08 AM (0+)
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Reply: Um, ok. So, besides the fact you dont like the US
your comment is useful how again? Thanks, but I am going to try to help my country's economy the best I can. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:42:59 AM (0+)
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Where does this money come from?
As dumb as the bank bailouts have been, this is an even worse idea. If for no other reason, one must ask the question as to where these trillions are coming from? The Chinese? Even they can't be stupid enough to continue their buying of T bills. Or I guess we can just print more money so that when this mess is all over, the dollar is worth about half or less of it's current value. And, of course, we need to wonder just who will be enforcing all of these regulations that will keep personal spening in check?! The SEC, Treasury? Yeah, right! Or maybe I've missed the entire point here and this is just a tongue in cheek article. by Tom Dawson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments [6 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:08:17 AM (0+)
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Reply: Well, first of all, 20-30% of the program is self-financed..
through increased taxes on those who accept a bailout. Additionally, you would have all of these trillions that would be income for those that currently hold household debt, be it banks, credit card companies, people who hold auto loans, etc. So, lets assume the bailout ends up being $5 Trillion. $1 Trillion to $1.5 Trillion is paid back by those receiving the bailout over 3 years. What is the average corporate and business effective tax rate? Lets say for argument's sake that it is 25%. So, businesses that receive the initial $5 Trillion will pay another $1.25 Trillion in additional taxes. Now we have about 1/2 of the program paid for by itself. For the rest, I will rely on what is known in macroeconomics as the multiplier and the taxation on that multiplied income. Suffice to say that those businesses who get the $5 Trillion will spend or reinvest that in ways that themselves generating of taxes to the government and that money will get spent or reinvested. Each time the money changes hands, it is taxed. The government would be out very little of this money. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:41:34 AM (0+)
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I couldn't agree more!
by Sherry Jansen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:44:03 AM (0+)
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Buying stuff
We need to stop buying and producing and importing unnecessary $hit and get down to true life necessities. If we think of ourselves as consumers we are doomed. Ann Kramer is on track saying a 70% consumer economy is non sustainable. We need to shift from an economy with businesses selling frills, diversions and junk with obsolescence to an economy of sustainability without the junk so that the value of good becomes realer. A shift to permaculture must happen. Stop buying $hit, live more simply and spread the word! Dave by Davaru (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 45 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:56:20 AM (0+)
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This punishes the thrifty
There are those in this country that have consistently lived within their means. They bought a reasonable sized house. Did not overextend on credit. Saved for a rainy day. Saved for college for their children and saved for retirement. They lived "small". They will be punished by this "consumer" bailout. This is an unfair plan and would stimulate more unrealistic consumer spending. A better idea might be to bailout those that have lost value by writing down the values of those home loans that now are out of alignment with the homes that were purchased. It still rewards the greedy but both saves the banking industry - the Fed Gov't buying up the bad portion of the loans. This keeps people in their homes. The banking industry solvent (although I believe they should be absorbing a portion of those write downs and offsetting those against profits, CEO pay and share holder values). An across the board consumer bailout would only put us back in the same position that created the fall we are now experiencing. No need to re-live that. by August Adams (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 585 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:01:52 AM (0+)
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Reply: Nope. Wrong on all counts.
It punishes no one. There are those in this country that have consistently lived within their means. They bought a reasonable sized house. Did not overextend on credit. Saved for a rainy day. Saved for college for their children and saved for retirement. They lived "small". They will be punished by this "consumer" bailout. This is an unfair plan and would stimulate more unrealistic consumer spending. No, they will not be punished in any way. And the legislation I have proposed that will go along with this will prevent people from borrowing beyond their means so you are absolutely 100% wrong here. A better idea might be to bailout those that have lost value by writing down the values of those home loans that now are out of alignment with the homes that were purchased. It still rewards the greedy but both saves the banking industry - the Fed Gov't buying up the bad portion of the loans. This keeps people in their homes. The banking industry solvent (although I believe they should be absorbing a portion of those write downs and offsetting those against profits, CEO pay and share holder values). This would do nothing to put consumers back in an ability to drive the economy. The economy would still be a mess 10-20 years after your plan is put in place. An across the board consumer bailout would only put us back in the same position that created the fall we are now experiencing. No need to re-live that No, you did not read carefully. I propose legislation that prevents consumers from borrowing beyond their means. The bailout would be the last one would see of the effects of unrestrained borrowing and spending by the consumer. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:37:39 PM (0+)
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Reply: A "consumer" economy is fundamentally wrong
I think the whole idea of creating an "economy" where we continue to purchase things is fundamentally wrong. It is the problem. In the United States and the other industrialized nations we consume. We waste. We use up. We have had a model based on perpetual growth. It's wrong. It needs fixing and changing. Your idea of finding another false way to "pump" the primes of the consumer I believe to be at the root of our problems. Many have been speaking of a new type of economy. Now exactly what that economy would be I'm not certain. I do believe the discussions have merit. A full service economy. An economy that is transparent. Where we see where the money is flowing and to whom. A fully transparent economy. Then we can correct the greed in it. The US economy has been a giant ponzi scheme. It consolidates wealth in the hands of the few while punishing the hands of the many. And we have been trying to spend our way out of this dilemma for a long time. I doubt very much that getting the consumer pumps working again is the answer to all the incredible problems coming down the road. Global warming. Military Solutions to problems. Resource depletion. Peak Energy (at least peak fossil fuel energy). By priming the consuming pump it will make all of these other problems more difficult. What if instead we started to look at a new paradigm? One where we put people first, but not necessarily so that they can consume more? Expanded social services. Health care for all. Mental health care for those that need it. Reforming our incarceration nation into a more fully productive one. Birth to death educational opportunities for everyone. And more transparency in the corporate arena. We need to know what they are doing in those board room meetings. They need to be as transparent as government. Corporate charters should be rewritten to serve the people. CEO pay, concentration of wealth, a whole host of things needs to be looked at. I agree with the idea that the wrong people are being bailed out, I just disagree that priming the consuming pump is the answer to our greater societal problems. by August Adams (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 585 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:44:49 PM (0+)
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Reply: But whether you disagree with a consumer econ or not
we still need the bailout otherwise a complete collapse is on the way. We can talk about a restructuring afterwards. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59:30 PM (0+)
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Reply: I disagree
I know a lot of people that have been thrifty. They do not have consumer debt. Even with the declining real estate prices, their homes are worth more than their mortgages. They did not trade up. They stayed in a small home. They have savings. Yes they have been eroded and their investments have declined but they do not have debt. Why bailout those that overspent, over consumed or over leveraged? On NPR today I was listening to a guy telling a story of the home he just lost outside of Las Vegas (one of the hardest hit areas of the country). He said while he lost his home, he was able to work with the bank and arrange a short sale. That means that there will not be a foreclosure on his credit. He believes, having saved his credit, he will be able to save and purchase a smaller home, within his means, in a few years. There are a lot of people that used the easy credit and the buy now and pay later principle to over extend themselves. Our parents did it differently. (At least mine did). They had one credit card for emergencies (a Sears card) and used it only if the hot water heater or something similiar went out. They did not buy things on credit. They saved and purchased the items when they had the money and they consistently saved. They always lived in a humble home. But they paid it off and paid it off early. They saved for retirement. And yes, the robber barrons have and the collapsing markets have hurt their retirement. They live off of their social security and declining savings. Consumers should be given tools to dig them selves out of debt but they should not be given a free pass. Many people who file bankruptcy go on to have a second (or in some cases third) bankruptcy. And the reason is that they do not learn the fundamentals of living within their means. And let be clear, while I believe that a broad Consumer Bailout is wrong for a myriad of reasons, I do believe there should be a fair system put in place to help those in trouble be relieved of their debts and start over responsibly. Fair and just bankruptcy laws. Fair and just ways to create and strengthen credit after a bankruptcy. But I do not believe that those that over extended or purchased beyond their means should be freely given the means to continue free wielding spending patterns. It's bad for all of us. We should return to saner times. Living within our means. Postponing and saving for expensive items - delayed gratification. And returning to becoming a saving nation. by August Adams (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 585 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:48:37 PM (0+)
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Reply: A Full Spectrum Economy
I encourage you to read Riane Eisler's book, Real Wealth of nations...creating a caring economics. It presents a well researched model for changing our economy and why this is logical/rational based on the realities of the 21st century A Full Spectrum Economy goes beyond our current extraction, production, consumption and profits centered economy to one that is predicated on an economy focused around what's needed to care for humans and the planet. The current economy is a 3 sector economy--markets, government and illegal activities are measured/monetized and included in the GDP A Full Spectrum Economy is a 6 sector economy--markets, gov't, illegal...and to it we will add the household, unpaid volunteer and natural sectors as part of the meaured/monetized economy. People/planet are already working in these sectors--we simply have failed to include them in our economic measurement--but when we do, we have a valid way to shrink the consumer 70% while upshifting 'work' in these new areas. A vibrant economy results! I agree with Steve that his ideas are for the immediate crisis--and I'm suggesting system change--but I think acutally we could do both right now. If we monetized the household sector (and I don't mean paying people to raise babies--I'm talking about a profession, standards of care that optimize human development--something we all know results in many positive outcomes). We could 'employ somehwere between 17-34 million people in this sector--at a salary of $40K. It would also increase education, health care, arts, fitness systems, better nutrition systems, etc, and expand our economy beyond buying 'stuff/junk'. How could it be funded--I refer you to Ellen Brown's writings--(Webofdebt.com) She has shown that it is possible for us to 'spend directly into a system' and by pass the Federal Reserve/debt slavery game. THE US Constitution allows for this... Anyway...I'll write more and more on the details of this in the next few weeks--and we hope to have online discussions happening by the end of January... by Ann Kramer (21 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 62 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:38:01 PM (0+)
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Reply: Thanks for the link
I'll order the book... by August Adams (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 585 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:52:48 PM (0+)
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Reply: A consumer economy is unavoidable,...
as living entities consume. They consume food and oxygen in even their simplest forms. Human societies need food, clean water, clean air, clothing, shelter, fuel, transportation infrastructure, and an economy to create and distribute the goods and services to meet these needs. In a properly oriented economy, meeting those needs creates wealth, without even beginning to discuss the luxuries we steep ourselves in. A full service economy is what one has when the creation of that wealth is "offshored". Then domestic employment becomes transportation and accounting for the wealth created by others. Those who import that wealth get rich selling it to those who must have it, everyone else gets to enjoy what we're staring in the face right now. An economy that does not create wealth creates failure. We have as stark an example of that as we should require to be about mending our ways, but some really have to feel the pinch before they can see the light. by John Sanchez Jr. (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 25 diaries, 1791 comments [148 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:32:53 AM (0+)
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This is a bail out of the credit industry!
Here we go again, bailing out the credit industry, it would be wise to repeal the so-called Bankruptcy reform legislation and let consumers file for bankruptcy. This is a jobs issue, most of those who are in debt could pay their debt if they had a freakin' job for one and one that paid a decent living wage two! As some have posted we can not have an economy based on consumerism so our entire economic system needs to return to a production based economy. The U.S. used to be the largest exporter of finished goods and is now the largest importer of finished goods. That is fact and proof that the U.S. is a consumer not a producer which is also why middle class jobs and wages have shrunk. We need wholesale change in economic thinking, from the neo-con supply side to a 180 degree to demand side economics. Where real living wages drive the demand. We the People must demand withdrawal from all trade agreements Nafta, Cafta, WTO and GATT!!!! We need American Job Protections and trade barriers to protect those jobs! As far as any sort of stimulus plan, it should be investment in every local community infrastructure project that is needed in those communities and the funds should be deposited in those same communities local banks! With Obama's economic team and his appointments to his cabinet, I don't see any reversal from the supply side economics, as those who have been appointed share in the design of that economic disaster. We the People must truly hit the streets as other countries have of late, the banking bailout is a colossal example of Taxation without representation! See you in Boston? by dumpthedlc (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 12:20:06 PM (0+)
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Reply: Imprecise...it is not a bailout of the credit industry
it is a bailout of EVERYONE starting with the everyday person and household. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:38:48 PM (0+)
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Reply: Bailout means theft
"I made the point that for the first time in American history, all five of these areas were problematic."--Leser That you think that this is the first time in history then you don't know much history. Let me ask you this: Do you realize that the Federal Reserve is not Federal? It is private. Do you realize there is no reserve? It is nothing but books accounting debt. Now start over with that knowledge in your head. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:45:10 PM (0+)
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Reply: You didnt address anything of what you responded to...
nor did you address the main point of the article. Stop hijacking this thread. If you want to talk about something completely unrelated to my article and the responses, start your own article or diary. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:00:40 PM (0+)
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Reply: Argue against Jefferson, his is my argument.
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:36:31 PM (0+)
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Reply: Sure it is!
We the People are paying off the credit card industry's criminal lending practices in full! These practices have put most in a position unable to pay the high interest rates and outrageous late fees, etc. For thirty years I have had a citi card and I pay the balance off every month, I accidentally missed a payment of 29.80 and the next month I had a 30.00 late fee. A friend had a low interest rate credit card and also paid off the balance each month, he went on a cruise and put the trip on his card, 4000.00, when he received his next bill his interest rate shot up to 16%, WTF? This is criminal and you want to use tax payer funds to pay these crooks off? If We the People pay off the debt of those who can not pay, then the debt needs to be restructured as bankruptcy and the credit industry would have to absorb the difference as they would in a personal bankruptcy. Again, if people have JOBS and ones that pay well then they can pay their bills. If you don't have job and someone pays off your debt, you still do not have any money to buy anything do you! Same with the auto industry, if you bail them out and people don't have a job or have a low paying job or worried that they're going to lose their job they are not going to go out and buy a friggin' car! "It's the JOBS ,stupid" (Not directed at you) by dumpthedlc (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:40:18 AM (0+)
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Reply: Bailout of the credit industry....
If you only pay people enough to get rid of their standing debt, it IS a bailout of the credit industry, as long as they aren't GETTING PAID ENOUGH TO COVER THEIR BASIC LIVING EXPENSES. It's only a matter of time till they're in debt again. (Boy, I wish I were in debt because I splurged on cocaine, brand-new Hummers, and diamond tiaras.) by Jill Herendeen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 213 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:20:55 PM (0+)
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dumpthedlc
Right on dumpthedlc ! Your reasoning makes total sense and I cant believe those in power fail to see the logic of trade barriers and withdrawal from corrupt trade agreements. So much brainwashing and propaganda was involved in selling free trade that some people still believe it can work. It has been a plus for China up until now and that's about it. All the hype and propaganda just so American based companies can move their operations to countries like China and use slave labor, then ship the goods back to the U.S. tariff free with an enormous markup ( have you priced china made running shoes lately?) I just cant believe a country would allow itself to be destroyed by multinational ( no patriotic sentiment at all) corporations. by Simple Truth (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 130 comments [26 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 12:32:07 PM (0+)
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PREDICTION, CAUSE, AND SOLUTION
To say that using the handful of obvious indicators, allowed you, in particular, in the last minutes of the eleventh hour, to "predict" the failure is preposterous, particularly as a pretended basis for solution, because you would be 30 years tardy in your purported ability to predict from mere symptoms, what can be projected accurately only from identifying the cause of the problem. Namely, that cause is inherent, irreversible, and inevitably terminal multiplication of debt by interest. Since when have you explained this process, or qualified an actual solution, restoring to the people the damages suffered under the falsified credit of the present, imposed system, and relieving the people of all extrinsic costs and irregularities? If *you had* that capability, where is your model of projection? Did you not just guess the moment of failure? Or is there an actual process you can offer up as proof of your eleventh hour prowess? Why don't you head over to perfecteconomy.com and download the source code to the models I provided the Reagan Administration, which projected in 1983 that the U.S. "economy" would collapse under irreversible multiplication of debt at approximately 2010 AD? What can or do you possibly add to the discussion now? Is there more than one solution to 1) inflation and deflation, 2) systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property, and 3) inherent, irreversible multiplication of debt in proportion to a circulation? How so? Why aren't you either advocating mathematically perfected economy™, or disproving it, if "your" alternate solution is preferable? Tell us specifically why immediate adoption of mathematically perfected economy™ would not only arrest failure in a day, but sustain all the prosperity we are capable of, without cost or further irregularity: http://perfecteconomy.com/day1.htm You know, it's all the eleventh hour "experts" who never had solutions, and haven't even the time to qualify "their" eleventh hour "solution" now, who are the principal reason we can't decide on *the* one solution... because they bury solution in all their eleventh hour appeals for *attention*. Show us your method, your algorithm for projecting failure; deliver your proof of solution. Tell us how there is more than one solution to inflation and deflation, or inherent, irreversible, and terminal multiplication of debt by interest. by mike montagne (10 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 120 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 1:46:29 PM (0+)
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Reply: Very simple response...
... so if you are telling me how I did NOT do something. Tell me how I did it. Obviously, I figured out before a lot of other people that we were heading for disaster. If I didnt do it by the means I suggested, tell me how I did. What you are arguing in your comment is silly and is just a way for you to get in your own talking points regarding why you think we are where we are. If you want to discuss it, please create your own article or diary, send me a link and I will be happy to do it. This article is not about debating the things you were talking about in your comment. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:43:05 PM (0+)
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Reply: Socialism/Communitarianism/Communism
Lesser, If you want to be "on top" of your game of prediction, let me just let you in on something, I have seen this coming for thirty years. You don't even know what money is. Fiat money is not wealth, it is debt. Credit is debt. It is simply fractional reseve banking and the FED that has led to this manufactured crisis. This crisis has been the plan ever since the conspiracy on Jekyll Island in 1910 leading to the treason of 1913 and the Federal Reserve Act, or the Aldridge Bill as it was first introduced. That your flatualent proposal is nothing more than Communism must not go without comment. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:03:31 PM (0+)
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Reply: Oh please
Give it a rest. Communism. You accuse me of not knowing what money is but you clearly have no idea what Communism or Socialism is. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:54:23 PM (0+)
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Reply: Sure
"Money", by this term we can mean two things: 1. Actual money based on inherent wealth; gold or silver, or true fiat money, which is a certificate for real money. 2. Debt based "money" (counterfeit money) based on the pozi scheme of fractional reserve banking. Every dollar in your wallet is of this kind today. The three "isms" I listed have one thing in common for implimentation: An all powerful central state. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:41:41 PM (0+)
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Reply: See: Jim Quinn
Right in this same issue of OEN is an article by Jim Quinn: what Happened to the American Dream. It might be to your advantage to read this article which begins with a quote and then these words: Mr. Adams penned these words in the midst of the Great Depression, the worst economic crisis in our history. It is timely to reflect on these words, as it appears that the American Dream is slipping further out of reach for most Americans. If the dream of a better life for our future generations is lost, it will truly mark a turning point for our great Republic. The reason the American Dream is slipping away is due to the actions of politicians running our government and bureaucrats running the Federal Reserve. Those with ability who have earned a better life through their hard work, intelligence and integrity should be attaining a higher position in the social order. Instead, our government is rewarding those Americans who have taken unwarranted risks, made brainless decisions, and willingly chose the course of excessive debt to climb the social ladder. As the politicians scurry to “save” capitalism through the use of communist measures, more Americans are becoming disheartened. The definition of communism according to Webster’s is: A system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:14:50 PM (0+)
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It is the 'Greatest Heist"
Largest transference of wealth from public to private ownership in the history of ownership, perhaps? Oh no, I forgot. We pioneers and colonists were nice enough to relieve the American Indian of the burden with a little help from 'smallpox' - a government issued "We come in Peace" Trojan Horse. Our souls weren't the only thing 'stole' by the company store. When this 'disaster capitalism' all settles, a small few survivors of the "derivatives, oil, and speculative wars" are going to own all the tangible "repossessed assets" in the US. Ever heard of a "carpetbagger?" They refer to them as 'civilian/government contractors' these days and they work for the military, industrial, media, government complex -- not the 'dispossessed.' by Amanda Lang (23 articles, 14528 quicklinks, 442 diaries, 731 comments [17 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:40:33 PM (0+)
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Reply: I see that coming too...
and that is another reason for bailing out the consumer now, but the question is, what will the few really own if no one else can buy anything. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:55:52 PM (0+)
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Reply: Let me get this straight
So, you think if you are fired from your job tomorrow for posting this stupid idea, that your credit goes to zero? by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:04:58 PM (0+)
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Reply: I have no idea where you get things sometimes...
... help me out. I have no idea what you are talking about. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:23:31 PM (0+)
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Reply: A Century in the Works
"what will the few really own if no one else can buy anything."--Leser They will own everything, all property, means of production, and the people as serfs. Neofeudal Global Plantation. That is what this is all about. It has been an agenda in the works for more than a century. Now, coming back with some song and dance about "conspiracy theorists" at this late date--as the actual theft is going on is to my thinking, quite delusional. (Have I put this delicately enough editor?) by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:18:13 PM (0+)
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BAILED-OUT?!
The credit card companies are in the business of making money, even at the demise of their customers. It's not prudent, fair, nor good business in the long run. Additionally, if they break their customers completely, they ALSO stand to lose out in the end. Certain types of business will always remain solvent like farming. Fields will always need to be maintained through the production of new tractors which replace the old ones. Anyone in plastics and steel assembly (even various material recyclers) will stay in business. As far as bail-outs, no one was there to bail me out when I was out of work past the time of my unemployment security blanket. Tightening our belts, as a country, when we've become too large means there will be some losers. Stores at the mall, patrons of the mall are both interconnected. Instead of bailing everything out, on down the rabbit hole, we should allow some businesses to go by the way-side. Maybe, it's easy for me to say that now that I have a job again. However, my job security is never secure. Neither should be a CEO's or his or her company's. If I don't deserve to be continually subsidised, neither do failed businesses. ~s IA 50644 by STEVE RISK (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 70 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:57:00 PM (0+)
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faux analysis
You predicted the collapse in 2008? LOL I had you beat by a least five years. Anyway, making predictions is easy. A boom or bust cycle makes every prediction eventually come true. What you need to do is explain why we have boom and bust cycles. I can; here it is: If 2+2=5, then eventually 5=2+2. Boom must follow bust; Bust must follow boom. It has nothing to do with Clinton or Bush; they are just the wizards pulling the levers of smoke and mirrors. They can try to claim the good and disavow the bad, but they are just like the pretty girls at the carshow. The have no control over the situation at all. Obama has already proven himself to be the new dunce in princely robes. But his faux analysis isn't much worse than your own. While it certainly makes more sense to bail out families than corporate charters, your article just documents just how far astray you are from really understanding the enormity of the situation. You see, the consumer pays all the profit for everybody who touched the product previously. If he can't afford to buy, then the ripple effect must reverse. Boom is Bust; they are not separate events. Like the game Monopoly, everybody is getting rich at the beginning of the game, and then the tipping point occurs, and everybody goes broke. If you go back to the beginning of the game, then you will always return to the end of the game, too. We need completely different rules! by Steve Consilvio (18 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:27:45 PM (0+)
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Reply: NEW RULERS
We need better representation than just a rip off off of Labour and Conservative crowning glory! Eh, dare I say, Canadian 'equal' 5-party-ship might also equate to 2+2; but it would be nice if the other parties could (JAMES) Garner ("The Maverick") more than 1% in future elections. (Such as: the Jackasses, the Grand Ole Party, Indies, Greens, and Progressives) Somebody tell CNN!!! ~s IA 50644 by STEVE RISK (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 70 comments) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:35:48 AM (0+)
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John Edwards Needed in the Obama Administration
President-Elect Barack Obama has chosen, mostly, Wall Street promoters and corporate lawyers to be in his cabinet. He hasn't included anyone who knows how to interact and relate with everyday American citizens, and then report back to him concerning: (1) what the people need, and (2) whether his administration's new initiatives are working. During the Great Depression, Eleanor Roosevelt fulfilled this role for President Franklin D. Roosevelt. I nominate Senator John Edwards for this role. John Edwards would be a refreshing change. Is not change what Obama is supposed to be about? As a rival of Barack Obama, for the Democratic Party Presidential nomination, John Edwards, consistently spoke up for average Americans, i.e. Main Street, not Wall Street. During his "Road to One America Poverty Tour" John Edwards demonstrated that he is uniquely qualified for this role. The video evidence follows: He has walked with and comforted people whose homes were being foreclosed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_GWrYkcCI In the next video, he explains that the problem is "corrupt capitalism". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT780q7-GiE Here he tells Obama that it will be necessary for the next President to fight the moneyed interests in order to achieve CHANGE for the American people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItdN2BYwA-8 He visited workers employed in the new renewal energy economy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50yOR5bvMV0 He defined the "Great Moral Test of Our Generation": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS1x88ZmohM John Edwards is, also, the only candidate for President that actually went down to New Orleans on several occasions and worked along side those striving to try to bring back the areas that remain so devastated from the effects of Hurricane Katrina: click here In this last video he outlines a plan of action to deal with the current economic crisis: Watch the video: click here Read the plan: click here by Helen Bean (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:57:24 PM (0+)
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Reply: the 'moneyed interests' ?????
Who do you think the 'moneyed interests' are? Everybody is handling money exactly the same way; the only difference between people is how much money they handle. The problem isn't WHO handles the money, but HOW we handle the money. by Steve Consilvio (18 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:28:03 PM (0+)
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Reply: CAJUN SPICE RUFFLES!
We get Southerner James Carville again!!! Kind of reminds of 'Casino' when De Niro's character loses his gaming license but still wants to be seen on TV in-between "terms". ~s IA 50644 by STEVE RISK (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 70 comments) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:55:14 AM (0+)
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Monetary manipulations is not sound policy
Well, your post generated many useful comments and I congratulate you for that. Although you have already responded I am still troubled by how you suggest government finance the bailout. Basically, by taxation and its economic multiplyer effects. You need to firm up this portion with independent professional analysis. Even if the taxation part is correct that still leave a sizable portion to finance. Borrowing is out of the question so that leaves printing money and we know what that mean. Already, Obama's multi-trillion dollar infrastructure stimulus proposal is causing second thoughts due to the many dangers in national finance it might create. My personal view is a massive consumer debt bailout will, must, fail because it is in the final analysis a delaying action. US is in the current situation because consumers and industry have not been able to create real value to support a high standard of living, and nobody wanted to cut back. So everybody goes into debt and the economic and political masters arranged things to let that happen. No amount of monetary policy and financial 'engineering' can fix a deficit of product and service value. Only when industry begins to be able to create true real values, and export a good deal of them, will the house get back in order. And that will take a new generation of highly skilled people. No country in history was able to become rich or sustain wealth by merely manipulating money, and the fiat money system makes that dangerously impossible. This is what the US has been doing for some 2 decades - by taking its strong 'reserve status' currency and milking wealth out of it. It worked for far longer than any other currency because of the unique benefits of being a reserve currency. At some point, however, those in charge should stop this fun but dangerous practice. They didn't and the whole thing blew up. The USD is now greatly damaged as a result, thus making further manipulations even more dangerous. You proposal of giant consumer bailout will reflect back into the currency as a giant manipulation. Think about it. by TomK (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 330 comments [22 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:25:31 PM (0+)
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A few people in this discussion are.............
on target.............the rest are still blinded by the Rothchild Family.........Credit and Insurance has crippled this society and continues to hold them hostage to this way of life............The Rothchild principles are to prey on the desperate..........You will find one or more as CEO to every Banking System, Insurance Company and Legislative Branch in the World......... Debt has put the American Society in desperate times and the elites are dancing and laughing...........If Americans want to stop the evil, greedy elites..........They must stop the cash flow of their hard earned money.........let your mortages go to hell and back.........rent your home until you can pay cash money for it........cut your credit cards and never pay another dime of interest to the ones who prey on the desperate........cancel your insurance policies and put your faith in the only one who can save you from destruction......... Let the Snakes from Hell who run these scams suffer from total collapse.......save your cash for the bare necessities only............refuse and reject any and all bailout programs, it's just another scam to keep you desperate to them.........live a simple life and you will see gasoline become 50 cents a gallon........then and only then will the people rule........... by Ernest (0 articles, 8 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 221 comments [40 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 12:40:47 AM (0+)
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The Real Bailout Needed
In regard to predicting the financial calamity that we are experiencing, Paul Krugman has been predicting the financial collapse based on the house of cards that represented the housing market, for the past several years. His published books and articles are well known. Any pay-off of people's debts would, of course, go to banks and credit card companies funneling money, once again, to wealthy investors. It would leave workers with merely a new start down the same dismal spiral. If we truly want to put an economic base under America's citizens with a plan that would benefit everyone and even assist businesses in their attempts to compete in a global business world, we would immediately enact universal, single-payer health insurance for all residents. If we can, without any accountability, funnel a trillion dollars or more to speculators, we can surely afford to initiate a health care plan that would relieve many families of significant expense and provide a base of economic justice to everyone. by Bryan Emmel (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 415 comments [32 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:50:06 AM (0+)
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Reply: The Medical and Heath Care Scam is no different.........
than the Oil and Banking Scams.......all owned and operated by the bloodsucking Rothchild Empire.......... Stop paying for Health Insurance and the chain of desperation will be broken.........hence: If you are not paying......they cannot operate.....get it??? by Ernest (0 articles, 8 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 221 comments [40 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:27:16 AM (0+)
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Reply: "The Real Theft Needed"
What you seem to miss here, is that the term "Bailout" is simply an Orwellian eupheminsm that translates into "Theft". The central problem in America (the West in general) is one of central state propaganda and the twine of language, that is twisted into a malformed 'babble' (Newspeak)--thus creating a nation of enchanted TVZombies. It's 1984 over and over, just like 'Groundhog Day'. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:11:55 PM (0+)
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Reply: Orwell :-) Good guy
Technically, money isn't real, so you can't steal it. Because people believe it is real, that is what makes it possible to manipulate them. Stealing is just changing fictitious numbers. Some people say its the Fed, or the Rothchilds, etc., but once you understand that money isn't real, THATS when the absurdity of the situation really hits. Orwell didn't dig quite deep enough, but he certainly was on the right path. Money is just paper, colored dirt, electronic digits. It doesn't matter who is in charge; if you think it is real, then you can't manage it properly. Most people think it is real; ergo, there's the rub. The labor is real, the goods are real, the numbers are a fantasy of habit. by Steve Consilvio (18 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 8:05:35 PM (0+)
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You Are Assuming We Are A Democracy
We are actually a Fascist nation... individuals mean crap. It's all about the corporations. The New World Order has arrived..... by Dennis Kaiser (20 articles, 0 quicklinks, 35 diaries, 730 comments [137 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:52:20 AM (0+)
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Bookie at the Door
So the USA took a gamble & lost,alot. Now U want to give the gambler more credit so they can bet more? Since when does the bankruptee ever get to write the terms of their dept ? No I do not dislike Amerika, Steve but I do not think we are anymore deserving or smarter than other nations. Why should we be treated any different than other countries that disregarded the true value of their currency, per instance Argentina or Mexico. Why do U think it is not right to bite the bullet & take responsibility for our past bad economic fantasies? I am not so sure why U think U are so smart & special;oh wow U saw it come last april; duh anybody reading gold bug sites knew the unreality of the fundaments ages ago. If U like the USA so much why do U want to cripple future generations with your greed!! by Markageloo Breza (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 15 comments) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:40:15 PM (0+)
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No It's Mine U cant take it Away
A father has made some money from his speculations so he desides to buy his son a car, on credit of course. Now his investments(sic) have gone sour & the payments for the car are in arrears. He goes to the son & tells him that he must take the car back. The son says no dad I can get a job & help out. The dad replies no son it is too late the repo man is here & I must give the vehicle back. I have made some mistakes & lost. Now U say no it was not my fault son U can keep the car ! Forgive my dept, neighbor give me more credit & U can tax my future wealth at a higher rate as soon as I become responsible. Do U think the Chinese are that stupid. U seem to think Amerika exsists in a vacumn. I hope U do not have an MBA. by Markageloo Breza (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 15 comments) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:14:00 PM (0+)
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Well done, Steve, but...
Your proposal, I think, fails to address a large segment of America that does not and cannot earn anything, thus being unable to make any contribution to the obligations they would have under your anticipated tax-payback system. Whether it is the elderly, the physically disabled, or those whose lacking the vocational abilities required by a society which increasingly relies on the abilities required of the knowledge worker and no others, their income steam is, and is likely to continue to be, zero. When we look at layoffs coming at the rate of a half-million a month, a likely national unemployment rate approaching 10%, and many thousands of former workers counted among those no longer looking, the outlook is pretty bleak. Yes, we have Social Security, Medicare, and disability payments as the “safety net” which pays for some, but far from all, of what is required for even the most basic necessities. How do you close the gap between these costs, and what is currently provided by government, be it Federal, State, or Local? Then there is a second problem, to which no one I am aware of, has proposed a solution. Even setting aside the large issue of criminal corruption, whether in government or Corporate America, there is the pervasive, ever-present specter of just plain raging incompetence. Whether in the defense, transportation or technology sectors, the overriding cause of collapse has been poor management. If there is incompetence in the private sector, it is multiplied by orders of magnitude in government. The question here is not of finding the failures, but rather, finding a single government program that can be pointed to as an example of contributing to making us the “shining city on the hill.” All of this said, this is among the most thoughtful and reasonable proposals I have seen in a long time. I continue to be a fan of your work. Keep it up. by Sherwin Steffin (16 articles, 26 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 119 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:20:33 PM (0+)
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I must be missing something.
I have an income and mortgage debt similar to "John". I'm floating a few hundred, mabye a grand in credit card debt. After paying the mortgage, more often than not, I pay off the credit cards within the grace period. I never have any particular difficulty doing any of this--at worst I pay some credit card interest for a few cycles. So, would I benefit from the government paying off my mortgage and current credit card debts, in return for three years of increased income tax? Absolutely! But why would it want to? In fact, if I heard of such a plan approaching approval I might be tempted to go on a plastic shopping spree, if I were acting only in my economic self-interest. Why wouldn't anyone, regardless of income and debt load, not accept such an offer? Apart from moral qualms, which I would definitely have. I do agree, though, that the guy with $14,000 income who got sold a mortgage on a $250,000 house with no payments for three years Thomas Friedman keeps ranting about should get a bailout. Moral hazard be damned, he isn't the only one at fault here, and it would stimulate the economy at least as reliably as bailing out the banks did. by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:52:18 AM (0+)
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John Nance Garner?
Are you familiar with the programs developed by John Nance Garner in the 30s to slow foreclosures? I wrote this a while back and would welcome any feedback you might have by siriusss (6 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 111 comments [6 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 at 11:20:26 AM (0+)
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