M.O.: Well, right now, what we know is that the brains of people who are psychopathic are different from non-psychopaths and what they're looking at are those areas of the brain that light up with emotion. Which they do. So, if you and I are feeling compassion and love for our family members, we're talking about good memories of, let's say, the holidays and somebody is doing a functional MRI a certain part of our brain is going to light up to show, you know, that empathy that we have, that part that makes us able to bond with other people.
You don't see that part of the brain lighting up with psychopaths. So it's true, this kind of brain scanning that we've learned so much about the distinction between psychopaths and non psychopaths. However, it's important for us to know that, let's say, they did a brain scan on you and those parts of the brain that show empathy, for example, didn't light up for some reason. You can't say, because that part of the brain does other things, too, not just dealing with emotion. So, I can't say just because of the way your brain lit up, or didn't light up, that you're absolutely psychopathic which is the reason that Dr. Hare and his colleagues, who did a lot of the original imaging on the brain, have developed this test which, again, involves the one on one interviews and then the collateral interviews, the test that really gets to the heart of being able to assess someone as being psychopathic.
You have to be somewhat careful about the brain scanning because it's like anything else, you can go in and gave a chest x ray and there's a mark on your lungs, well, there could be multiple reasons for that. It could be scar tissue, it could be cancer, it could be something else. So, we have to be very careful about putting people into boxes because they've got something that shows up on their brain and, ergo, the reason for the test and the reason for being as thorough as you can in doing an assessment. It's very damaging, very damaging, to use the word "psychopath" on an individual.
Big consequences for that and so, for those of us who work in the science, we're very careful about using that term and how we use it.
R.K.: So what part of the brain is involved?
M.O.: Right now we know it's the frontal part of the brain, the front part of the brain that is where your emotions seem to dictate where your emotions, but it's also a part of the brain that does a lot of executive leadership as well. Executive decision making as well, so it's the frontal part of the brain and if you read the article on the white collar psychopath, which is actually part of a series of articles that we did in the FBI's law enforcement bulletin which, by the way, is available to the public if they want to read more about it.
Some of the traits of psychopathy actually do very well for people who need to run a corporation, or run an agency, or run a government. So, and I think we point that out in that article that not most psychopaths are violent and again some of these traits can be very helpful until they're not. I say this to the classes I've taught over at the FBI and I've put up the traits of psychopathy and people will look at those traits and you can see the expression on their face and I say, if you're worried about being one, chances are you're not.
Because it's not stress-inducing for psychopath to look at those traits and say, holy cow, maybe I'm a psychopath. In fact, it's the exact opposite. In my interviews with many psychopaths, I've asked them do you think that you're psychopathic? Fully expecting them to tell me, I don't even know what that word means, Mary Ellen. Oh no, they know what it means. Even if their education level is very low. And I'll ask them what do you think about that? And I've had them tell me repeatedly, well, I think it's a good thing.
So again my classes will look at the traits and I'll remind them of a couple of things, some of these traits are essential if you work in my profession which is law enforcement. You have to have some of these traits, but the distinction is that the traits of a psychopath, just like anybody's personality, it's with them all the time.
It's just not job-related, or job-specific, so, when I would go to work every day as an FBI agent and look at the brutality of the crime scenes as an FBI profiler, I'd have to suspend my empathy because I have got to look at some horrible cases in order to assess the case, analyze the case, and help the agencies come up with some suspects. So, if I sat there and allowed my feelings to come through I'd be weeping all day long and I couldn't do my job. When I would come home-
R.K.: How many psychopaths have you actually interviewed? And talked to?
M.O.: Well, in the beginning of my career, which started in 1977, I didn't know about psychopathy. I knew about sociopathy and APD, but not about psychopathy and so all of those interviews that I did prior to really coming in and becoming an FBI agent and then ultimately an FBI agent profiler, I'm sure I interviewed a lot, but didn't realize it and it probably did affect my interviews, but once I really began to develop an understanding and started to work closely with Dr. Hare and do some of this research I would say as far as serial killers, I went back once and counted, probably about fifteen which may not sound like a lot, but when you're talking about the most egregious of offenders, it's pretty high and then serial rapists and kidnappers and child molesters and pedophiles the numbers are really quite high and not all of them were psychopathic.
We think the estimate right now is about 1% of the general population has psychopathic traits. So that's 1% of the general population and the estimate right now is about 15% of the prison population are psychopathic which means basically that 85% of the prison population are not psychopathic. So we have to think in terms of, okay, but how many people are not psychopathic, as well? But those are general figures for the presence of psychopathy in the general public as well as in a prison population.
R.K.: I understand that the recidivism rate for psychopaths are much higher.
M.O.: They certainly can be, especially if you're talking about a sex crime. Now, if you're talking about someone who goes to prison and, lets say, they do score high on the psychopathy check list, but they're not a sex offender, then their recidivism rate may be lower.
Part of what powers, or fuels, the recidivism rate for a psychopathic individual is the co-morbidity which means the co-presence of other disorders and when you see a psychopath who also is a pedophile, or a psychopath who is a rapist, or a psychopath who is a serial killer who kills for sexual purposes, then there's a sexual pathology that's also part of their psychopath and that actually increases their dangerousness and it certainly would increase the likelihood of recidivism. So, again, these things can become very complicated and people don't fall into, well he's a psychopath so therefore you can make all these predictions. You have to drill down much deeper than that.
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