RS: The manners are incredible. He's the ugly face of America -- we all know that. But the fact is, we don't have a force for peace, for rational understanding. I know there are progressive signs, I'm not dismissing them. But there are intimidating forces. And you have it -- I'm not going to speak about The Nation, I can tell you what Truthdig, the publication I edit, you know -- I had to beg people the last few days to put the story on that Trump went to Vietnam and is negotiating peace. Peace matters, give peace a chance.
KVH: Peace matters. We have a terrific correspondent, Tim Shorrock, who has taken on the Democrats in these last months, who treat the opening to North Korea as something seditious, when in fact you seize opportunities for dialogue and diplomacy where you can find them. I do think there's been a nullification of first principles among progressives and liberals because of Trump derangement syndrome, whatever you want to call it. But I also think we will look back at this time, and look back at the shameful complicity of the media political establishment in this madness. It is an all-American trait to have a robust debate, at least I believe so. We've had one hand clapping, the narrative about Russia, about Putin, about U.S.-Russian relations has been so flattened, perverted, and demonized that we have lost not only the peace and justice movement -- which I think will come back around nuclear issues, which are rising again.
But part of what's happened is the shock of the Trump election, and as you rightly said, the inability of the Democratic Party or progressives to look deeply into America's own pathologies, to blame it on Trump or Putin, is very dangerous. But we need to understand that the establishment, I believe, understands how discredited, how bankrupt it is. But I think the big fight for the future is how you build a different, alternative foreign policy, articulate it clearly, take it to the country -- a country, by the way, which is not in sync with the elites, Bob. You know that, that disconnect has been there for years. On the eve of 2018, the midterms, Russiagate for example, or the menace of Russia didn't even rank as one of the top 25 or 30 issues. And if polling shows, Americans seek an end to these endless wars without victory. They seek diplomacy, they believe their leaders -- catch this -- exhaust all possible means, alternatives before going to war. So I think we're at a moment, a turning point, and the struggle is on to ensure that a discredited, bankrupt establishment doesn't lead the way forward, but what a progressive left can build is also going to demand a lot of discipline. And not being baited, or so focused on Trump that you abet him instead of abetting peace and justice and other possibilities.
SC: Here's where Katrina and I get into a conflict that probably doesn't really exist, but rhetorically we've gotten into it. I think the situation is terribly, terribly dangerous with Russia. And we can talk about the new nuclear weapons, the new nuclear arms race. The Dr. Strangeloves on both sides are talking about usable nuclear weapons now, because they claim they can control the radiation fallout. I mean, this is someplace we haven't really been, at least not in 30 or 40 years. So the situation is perilous; the demonization of Putin, the demonization of Trump, traditional diplomacy has broken down, contacts are being criminalized. So we're at this crucial moment. In 1935, George Bernard Shaw visited Stalin. And he said to Stalin, you know, your literature is not very good; Soviet literature should be a lot better. And Stalin said, these are the only writers I have. Trump's the only president we've got now. Hate him all you want, and we've got him for two or six years -- we can't wait. Now, Katrina thinks that the focus should be on building movements from below, working with voters
KVH: Well, Congress playing a role.
SC: All right. That's all correct. But we don't have time, so I keep thinking every day, because we found themyou remember, Bobwe found them finally in the Senate for the most part during Vietnam. We were out there by ourselves, and suddenly we've got four or five, not only McCarthy, but there were a whole bunch of them suddenly in the Senate that rebelled against their own president, and not only Democrats. So I'm thinking, as Katrina likes to say "transpartisan," I'm looking across the political spectrum, looking for politicians whose voice might get in the mass media -- where we have been shut out, by the way. I used to write regularly for the New York Times op-ed page; I can't get on there. Looking for politicians who will talk about what we're talking about in an urgent way. And you find them in strange place; I mean, I am drawn to Rand Paul, the senator from my own state of Kentucky, not because we're both from Kentucky, but because on these foreign policy issues, he is correct. So is Tulsi Gabbard. So are other people, maybe only five or six -- Ro Khanna of California. But we need voices at the top, because leaders change foreign policy. That's our tradition, for better or worse. And so we really do need a leader now, and we are without a leader at the moment.
KVH: I don't disagree. I think you need inside outside. You need the energy, the movement, the pushing, the social movements, but you need allies inside. I certainly, certainly agree with that.
RS: I think there's something rotten at the core of this. You said, what about the U.S.? And I think this is a society that is in crisis and cannot face it. And this whole Russiagate, this whole hysteria is a way of avoiding a serious inquiry into what ails us. The clarity of the moment requires recognizing this rot at the core. And at the core is this notion of American exceptionalism. It came up in the presidential election; here's Donald Trump saying he's going to make America great again, and Hillary Clinton said it's always been great. Right there, you had the problem. If we are such an exceptional nation, and all the major crimes have been done by other people, then we are to be trusted with the planet's future. And that means denying all of the really horrible problems we had in our own system, going back to the destruction of the native culture that was here, slavery, you go right through the whole list.
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