David Swanson: Yes...
Craig Barnes: .... where to get a handle on it, where to begin with that, so it's actually useful sometimes too narrow it and make it a simple, straightforward, "these are the facts" case, and that's what Patrick Fitzgerald did so well with Scooter Libby, and which had so much impact, because it was stripped of all the extra possible cases, all the possible ways we could nail this guy. These were real facts, real materials, real witnesses who were eyewitnesses who could appear in court, could give you reasonable testimony, and that ought to be encouraged to moderates and uncertain people throughout the political spectrum.
David Swanson: I could not agree more. Elizabeth de la Vega; have you seen her new book? She has a book on the subject.
Craig Barnes: I have not.
David Swanson: It's coming out next month, and is a case for criminal prosecution, and so it's not entirely dissimilar to your play, although maybe not as dramatic and entertaining, and I wonder what you think are the actual prospects for criminal prosecution or civil prosecution in this country or abroad? I know that the Center for Constitutional Rights filed a case in Germany against Rumsfeld and Rumsfeld almost had to cancel a trip to Germany because it was afraid he would be arrested, and there are those who have always had in mind in the long term this sort of Pinochet scenario, where we get these guys under international law and international court and restore the existence of international law in the process. What do you think in the long run are the prospects for this?
Craig Barnes: I think the courts in my experience in trying cases is that courts re substantially centrist; that they don't wander very far beyond public opinion. If there is a collapse of support of the president and some sense of outrage, if something happens that makes him a less-than-honorable character, I could see something more than lying. I could see the tide sweep against him and a post-presidency trial happening. I could see it more likely to happen with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. I think that those possibilities exist. They would have the beneficial effect of reviving a global respect for international law and I think it could be quite useful that way. On the other hand, our most central objective needs to be simply to get that kind of person out of public office in this country, so our first objective doesn't need to be trial and imprisonment, and I frankly, personally, couldn't care less whether they spend days in jail; I think what's most important is they stop misleading the American public and trampling on this extraordinary heritage of civil law, because it's the civil law heritage which is the backbone of our system, so rather than vengeance or revenge against these guys, the biggest objective, the first one, is to stop this predation on the constitution.
David Swanson: Again, very well said, and the play is incredibly well done. It's brilliantly entertaining as well as important, and I hope everyone will go to www.anataiondeceived.org and arrange to have more people read it and perform it. Craig Barnes, thanks for talking to me.
Craig Barnes: David, it's great to talk to you. Thank you for calling.
David Swanson: Sure.
Craig Barnes: .... where to get a handle on it, where to begin with that, so it's actually useful sometimes too narrow it and make it a simple, straightforward, "these are the facts" case, and that's what Patrick Fitzgerald did so well with Scooter Libby, and which had so much impact, because it was stripped of all the extra possible cases, all the possible ways we could nail this guy. These were real facts, real materials, real witnesses who were eyewitnesses who could appear in court, could give you reasonable testimony, and that ought to be encouraged to moderates and uncertain people throughout the political spectrum.
David Swanson: I could not agree more. Elizabeth de la Vega; have you seen her new book? She has a book on the subject.
Craig Barnes: I have not.
Craig Barnes: I think the courts in my experience in trying cases is that courts re substantially centrist; that they don't wander very far beyond public opinion. If there is a collapse of support of the president and some sense of outrage, if something happens that makes him a less-than-honorable character, I could see something more than lying. I could see the tide sweep against him and a post-presidency trial happening. I could see it more likely to happen with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. I think that those possibilities exist. They would have the beneficial effect of reviving a global respect for international law and I think it could be quite useful that way. On the other hand, our most central objective needs to be simply to get that kind of person out of public office in this country, so our first objective doesn't need to be trial and imprisonment, and I frankly, personally, couldn't care less whether they spend days in jail; I think what's most important is they stop misleading the American public and trampling on this extraordinary heritage of civil law, because it's the civil law heritage which is the backbone of our system, so rather than vengeance or revenge against these guys, the biggest objective, the first one, is to stop this predation on the constitution.
David Swanson: Again, very well said, and the play is incredibly well done. It's brilliantly entertaining as well as important, and I hope everyone will go to www.anataiondeceived.org and arrange to have more people read it and perform it. Craig Barnes, thanks for talking to me.
Craig Barnes: David, it's great to talk to you. Thank you for calling.
David Swanson: Sure.
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