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crime. He has decriminalized that, which I must say, I think is a terrible stain on Obama. And it's
not too late to reverse that.
Jimmy Dore
Well, you know, one of the reasons why you prosecute a crime, one is for punishment, but the
other is to discourage it from happening in the future. And when you don't prosecute a crime, it
guarantees it's going to continue to happen in the future even if it's not happening right now. So
let me just say, one point you made where you talked about the message it sends to the troops
when Trump goes around with a war criminal and pardons him and the message that sends.
What message does it send when Barack Obama tortures Chelsea Manning, which is what he
did for revealing war crimes? What message does that send?
Daniel Ellsberg
Well, it answers itself, doesn't it? Namely, it's just this pattern that I described. I suspect that's
not solely an American problem. Other countries, I'm sure, are not quick to recognize crimes by
their own people. But really, I remember following the Nuremberg trials when I was young, and I
was very struck by Justice Jackson's, which I remember from the time actually, saying we are
applying laws that are meant to be universal, here.
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