Paul
Craig Roberts:
John Pilger is the famous English documentary film-maker. I think actually he is Australian, but he lives in England and has had his career there, and his documentaries are just absolutely devastating in exposing the evil machinations of the United States government and the British government. He is a left-wing person, a member of the real left, the old left that seems to have disappeared. The places he will go, and the risk he will take in order to get the story on film is just amazing. I'm surprised he's still alive. He is a heroic person. We have one of our own. What's his name? Michael Moore. But Pilger is just .. I'm not taking way anything from Michael Moore, but Pilger is in a class of his own. To see his documentaries, to read his columns " in fact, you should get his columns on your site. They are every bit " they are stronger than mine. They are really good. And the guy has a sense of justice, and if you read it you can see the sense of justice and outrage, and the humanity of the man. You know, anybody who can go through what we are going through without a sense of outrage just hasn't any humanity.
Rob Kall:
I've got to write that down.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Anybody going through what we're going through without a sense of outrage has no humanity.
Rob Kall:
So, I have one last question. It's an experiment. It's a new project I'm working on. You're the first person I'm asking this. It comes out of the blue. I don't know if you're going to have an answer or not, but I've started a new website that has nothing but a picture and a headline on it right now. I'm working on putting it together. It's called http://www.smallacts.org/
There are actually a couple of quotes that I have that are supporting it, that have been cited by Howard Zinn and Pete Seeger ". Here are the quotes just to kind of prime the pump:
"Small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world." That's Howard Zinn. And Pete Seeger said, "I honestly believe the future's going to be millions of little things saving us." I believe that every day, among the billions of people on this planet, billions of small acts are done, that make a difference. And I want to collect some of the significant ones that have made a difference. I'm convinced that it doesn't (take) an act of Congress to change the world, Sometimes it can be a decision to say "No," or to take a small risk, or to engage in an act of kindness, and that can reverberate across the planet. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Paul Craig Roberts:
I think it's an excellent idea. You certainly should pursue it. You see, one advantage of it, though it has many, is it gets people away from these "causes" - these mass "causes" that rely on government power to coerce somebody. And it brings it back to individual acts of humanity. I think one of our downfalls is these causes, these mass causes like the "war on drugs," and the "Child Protection Act." There have been so many innocent victims of that. All these kinds of mass movements which rely on government power and coercion (have) helped unleash it, so to come back to individual acts of humanity (provides) some hope. And there is some hope there a long-term hope. But, you know, Rob, let me say one other thing on behalf of your new project: My professor at Oxford was Michael Polanyi, a famous scientist and also a ".
Rob Kall: What was his name?
Paul Craig Roberts:
Michael Polanyi
Rob Kall:
Oh, yes!
Paul Craig Roberts:
And what Polanyi said early on (was), he told me, "Look, all of this concern with the Soviet Union is behind-the-times. It's over-blown." He's telling me this in the sixties and the seventies. "This system is already gone. The symbols of it are still there in place, but it disappeared with Khruschev's secret speech denouncing Stalin, because that broke the mystique of the power of the party as infallible.
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/khrush_speech.html
And ever since then the belief among the top party leaders in communism was dying."
Former communist intellectuals whom he personally knew had written in journals things such as, "The Party told us that the sea was lemonade and we drank it until we vomited." And he said the reason the Soviet Union collapsed was because the belief in it collapsed among the leaders. It wasn't overthrown. It died because the people who benefited most from it ceased to believe in it. So, that type of thing, that type of an explanation claims that even brutal people with unlimited power can still come back to a reasonable or moral approach to things. And so I think that is a very supportive idea for your project, and it really also sort of mitigates the kind of pessimism you heard from me today, because it says that even evil people at some point can have enough. To Polanyi it started with Khruschev's secret speech in 1956 denouncing Stalin. And he said the reason that Khruschev did that is because the entire top echelons of the Party had come to realize that they were all vulnerable. Under the way that system worked, no one was safe except the top leader - and maybe not even the top leader, because all the others would feel they weren't safe because of him, and plot against him. And so, he said, Khruschev had to denounce the Stalinist system. And that once he did that, the whole belief in the infallibility of the Communist Party evaporated. And, of course, it took its time to work through, but if you look at Reagan's approach to Gorbachev, he did not approach it from a neo-conservative standpoint of smiting them, and knocking them down. He said, we are going to end the Cold War. We aren't going to win it. We are going to end it. And he was able to appeal to Gorbachev in terms of good will, and they resolved this on the basis of mutual good will. And then, of course, once the system collapsed,then the bastards in Washington started taking advantage of the Russians, renewed the Cold War, and did everything we promised we would not do. We brought Eastern Europe into NATO. We are now trying to put missile bases on the Russian borders. We did everything that Reagan said would never be done. And so we now see the United States behaving as the Evil Empire.
Rob Kall:
Yeah, there's a theory that the U.S. prefers not to capture bin Laden, because he's worth more as an excuse while he's free, or where his being alive or dead is not known.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Right.
Rob Kall:
Paul, thanks. We've been going and going here. This has been great. You've talked about a few things that I think would be great articles: The collapse of the dollar and its potential for changing things in a good way is a very interesting piece. If I might encourage you to think about writing at a different place, in a different way. You've been very courageous in what you've done and said so far. I hope we see you back again.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, Rob, I appreciate the support, I appreciate the forums you gave me, and I appreciate your efforts. As you are a much younger man, you may have more energy to continue with them.
Rob Kall:
[laughs]
Paul Craig Roberts:
And I'm not going to say that I'll never participate again. I'm going to do a few radio things from time to time. But I'm just going to watch now and see what happens. I'm going to see how things play, and if I get back enough faith in the power of truth to be resurrected, I might come back later and try to say something. On the other hand, maybe others now will take over and carry this on. You know, sometimes the "baton has to pass," or whatever it is that they call it, and other people come into the fray. But we have you there, and you certainly do good, and of course, if somehow 9/11 could be exposed, if people could simply realize what they are looking at when they see the buildings, then possibly we could hold an evil government accountable, and the shock of it would lead to the restoration of the power of the Constitution. And I think we would see that a lot of judges would be forced to stand down. We would get people in who are determined to avoid inhumane means in order to achieve some goal favored by powerful special interests. But that's the way our system works now. Of course 9/11 enabled that more than anything, and the myth about 9/11 being done by these superhero Muslims as long as that prevails, then the government won't be held accountable, regardless of the fact that they broke the law torturing, and they don't abide by the Constitution. They took away habeas corpus, due process, and all these other things. All of that is protected by this myth of 9/11. If that myth gets exposed, then, like the collapse of the dollar, those two things either one of them and certainly both together would halt the Evil Empire forever.
Rob Kall:
OK. Thank you so much!
Paul Craig Roberts:
You're welcome, Rob. Thank you for the opportunity.
Rob Kall:
Thanks for all you've done.
Paul Craig Roberts:
All right!
John Pilger is the famous English documentary film-maker. I think actually he is Australian, but he lives in England and has had his career there, and his documentaries are just absolutely devastating in exposing the evil machinations of the United States government and the British government. He is a left-wing person, a member of the real left, the old left that seems to have disappeared. The places he will go, and the risk he will take in order to get the story on film is just amazing. I'm surprised he's still alive. He is a heroic person. We have one of our own. What's his name? Michael Moore. But Pilger is just .. I'm not taking way anything from Michael Moore, but Pilger is in a class of his own. To see his documentaries, to read his columns " in fact, you should get his columns on your site. They are every bit " they are stronger than mine. They are really good. And the guy has a sense of justice, and if you read it you can see the sense of justice and outrage, and the humanity of the man. You know, anybody who can go through what we are going through without a sense of outrage just hasn't any humanity.
Rob Kall:
I've got to write that down.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Anybody going through what we're going through without a sense of outrage has no humanity.
Rob Kall:
So, I have one last question. It's an experiment. It's a new project I'm working on. You're the first person I'm asking this. It comes out of the blue. I don't know if you're going to have an answer or not, but I've started a new website that has nothing but a picture and a headline on it right now. I'm working on putting it together. It's called http://www.smallacts.org/
There are actually a couple of quotes that I have that are supporting it, that have been cited by Howard Zinn and Pete Seeger ". Here are the quotes just to kind of prime the pump:
"Small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world." That's Howard Zinn. And Pete Seeger said, "I honestly believe the future's going to be millions of little things saving us." I believe that every day, among the billions of people on this planet, billions of small acts are done, that make a difference. And I want to collect some of the significant ones that have made a difference. I'm convinced that it doesn't (take) an act of Congress to change the world, Sometimes it can be a decision to say "No," or to take a small risk, or to engage in an act of kindness, and that can reverberate across the planet. Do you have any thoughts about that?
I think it's an excellent idea. You certainly should pursue it. You see, one advantage of it, though it has many, is it gets people away from these "causes" - these mass "causes" that rely on government power to coerce somebody. And it brings it back to individual acts of humanity. I think one of our downfalls is these causes, these mass causes like the "war on drugs," and the "Child Protection Act." There have been so many innocent victims of that. All these kinds of mass movements which rely on government power and coercion (have) helped unleash it, so to come back to individual acts of humanity (provides) some hope. And there is some hope there a long-term hope. But, you know, Rob, let me say one other thing on behalf of your new project: My professor at Oxford was Michael Polanyi, a famous scientist and also a ".
Rob Kall: What was his name?
Paul Craig Roberts:
Michael Polanyi
Rob Kall:
Oh, yes!
Paul Craig Roberts:
And what Polanyi said early on (was), he told me, "Look, all of this concern with the Soviet Union is behind-the-times. It's over-blown." He's telling me this in the sixties and the seventies. "This system is already gone. The symbols of it are still there in place, but it disappeared with Khruschev's secret speech denouncing Stalin, because that broke the mystique of the power of the party as infallible.
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/khrush_speech.html
And ever since then the belief among the top party leaders in communism was dying."
Former communist intellectuals whom he personally knew had written in journals things such as, "The Party told us that the sea was lemonade and we drank it until we vomited." And he said the reason the Soviet Union collapsed was because the belief in it collapsed among the leaders. It wasn't overthrown. It died because the people who benefited most from it ceased to believe in it. So, that type of thing, that type of an explanation claims that even brutal people with unlimited power can still come back to a reasonable or moral approach to things. And so I think that is a very supportive idea for your project, and it really also sort of mitigates the kind of pessimism you heard from me today, because it says that even evil people at some point can have enough. To Polanyi it started with Khruschev's secret speech in 1956 denouncing Stalin. And he said the reason that Khruschev did that is because the entire top echelons of the Party had come to realize that they were all vulnerable. Under the way that system worked, no one was safe except the top leader - and maybe not even the top leader, because all the others would feel they weren't safe because of him, and plot against him. And so, he said, Khruschev had to denounce the Stalinist system. And that once he did that, the whole belief in the infallibility of the Communist Party evaporated. And, of course, it took its time to work through, but if you look at Reagan's approach to Gorbachev, he did not approach it from a neo-conservative standpoint of smiting them, and knocking them down. He said, we are going to end the Cold War. We aren't going to win it. We are going to end it. And he was able to appeal to Gorbachev in terms of good will, and they resolved this on the basis of mutual good will. And then, of course, once the system collapsed,then the bastards in Washington started taking advantage of the Russians, renewed the Cold War, and did everything we promised we would not do. We brought Eastern Europe into NATO. We are now trying to put missile bases on the Russian borders. We did everything that Reagan said would never be done. And so we now see the United States behaving as the Evil Empire.
Rob Kall:
Yeah, there's a theory that the U.S. prefers not to capture bin Laden, because he's worth more as an excuse while he's free, or where his being alive or dead is not known.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Right.
Rob Kall:
Paul, thanks. We've been going and going here. This has been great. You've talked about a few things that I think would be great articles: The collapse of the dollar and its potential for changing things in a good way is a very interesting piece. If I might encourage you to think about writing at a different place, in a different way. You've been very courageous in what you've done and said so far. I hope we see you back again.
Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, Rob, I appreciate the support, I appreciate the forums you gave me, and I appreciate your efforts. As you are a much younger man, you may have more energy to continue with them.
Rob Kall:
[laughs]
Paul Craig Roberts:
And I'm not going to say that I'll never participate again. I'm going to do a few radio things from time to time. But I'm just going to watch now and see what happens. I'm going to see how things play, and if I get back enough faith in the power of truth to be resurrected, I might come back later and try to say something. On the other hand, maybe others now will take over and carry this on. You know, sometimes the "baton has to pass," or whatever it is that they call it, and other people come into the fray. But we have you there, and you certainly do good, and of course, if somehow 9/11 could be exposed, if people could simply realize what they are looking at when they see the buildings, then possibly we could hold an evil government accountable, and the shock of it would lead to the restoration of the power of the Constitution. And I think we would see that a lot of judges would be forced to stand down. We would get people in who are determined to avoid inhumane means in order to achieve some goal favored by powerful special interests. But that's the way our system works now. Of course 9/11 enabled that more than anything, and the myth about 9/11 being done by these superhero Muslims as long as that prevails, then the government won't be held accountable, regardless of the fact that they broke the law torturing, and they don't abide by the Constitution. They took away habeas corpus, due process, and all these other things. All of that is protected by this myth of 9/11. If that myth gets exposed, then, like the collapse of the dollar, those two things either one of them and certainly both together would halt the Evil Empire forever.
Rob Kall:
OK. Thank you so much!
Paul Craig Roberts:
You're welcome, Rob. Thank you for the opportunity.
Rob Kall:
Thanks for all you've done.
Paul Craig Roberts:
All right!
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