"reinstate the draft, and mobilize to end this war in Iraq," You're simply out of your mind. Iraq can not be won. Even with half a million troops. You can't defeat an enemy you can't indentify. You can'[t secure borders which don't exist. The American people do not support the war with an all volunteer army, and you think a draft is going to keep dems in office? What have you been smoking?

by Esbe (50 articles, 0 quicklinks, 17 diaries, 85 comments) on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 6:43:42 AM

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I didn't say it could be done, I said it's the only way they could stay in power. They were elected because if dissatisfaction with Bush and the war. If they pull us out, fine...but they won't. Mark what I'm saying, they just won't do it. They have no other choice but to win it then. This war can be won, if its done right, and not by us alone. You are right, fighting it the way we are is insane, pulling out without stabilizing the country is also. There are no other choices and as long as we have everyone saying we can't possibly win (which is really not true, you have been brainwashed, it IS possible) we won't. If we do what I suggest, we can. If not...then say hello to the Right in 2008.

by Timothy V. Gatto (348 articles, 177 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 574 comments) on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 7:31:53 AM

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Hi, Tim Nice article. I admire your optimism and energy. But, as you know, I can't honestly say that I share it with you for three huge reasons: [1] the Democrats, who show no signs of any of the brains, heart or courage of which you speak and who cannot, as you imply, be expected to either end the war or seek justice for the crimes of the Bush administration; [2] the American people who, as you imply, cannot be expected to remember, understand or react appropriately to events in the news; and [3] the conservative owned and biased media which has choked off the liberal message. You and I (elsewhere) both talk about what must done to consolidate recent gains and press forward, and you can tell that neither of us expects any of those three - the Democrats, the voters or the press – to do their jobs. So, when we suggest that this or that MUST be done, we also know that it probably won't. This culture no longer possesses the right stuff. It is unworthy of its present prosperity, freedoms or place in the world. All of this may be rectified soon through a sort of social Darwinism that lets the sick and maladapted die away and make room for the healthy or better adapted. Who is helped by trying to sustain such a disease riddled polity? Sometimes, a house is in such ill repair that it makes more sense to raze it and clear the way for a new structure than to try to repair it. Aren't we doing the world a favor if we just let that come to pass? Let us not always be American living in America. Sometimes, we must transcend those artificial boundaries and be human beings from earth. What does earth and humanity need from America more than for it just to stop being America and rejoin the community of civilized and cooperative western states, to stop subverting third world governments and economies, to work with the world on ecological concerns such as global warming, and to cease in its militant imperialistic behavior? And we both know that America has no intention of changing any of its behaviors before it is forced to by circumstances or by other nations. We both believe that America is a runaway locomotive threatening to collide with the rest of the world if it doesn't derail first. If we cannot stop it and redirect it, should we really be trying to slow it down if that merely keeps it on the tracks and headed for impact? Our government is a pox on the world. Should we really be propping it up and sustaining it if we can't redirect (reform) it? And how are we going to do that when the Democrats, the voters and the media all suffer from senile dementia? All things must pass. I don't feel good anymore about what we are doing to the world and humanity, and I want it to stop. It seems to be on a course to self-destruct, and I don't feel like I can prevent that, merely delay it. The Clinton years were just a slowing, not a reversal, of the process of the fascist transformation of America that has been taking place since Reagan was inaugurated. It was just a prolongation of the dying. So, what I mean by my subject above is, should we be trying to sustain the Democrat-Republican shell game at all, or is our energy better spent letting nature take its course and using our time and that energy to be making plans to get out of the way when it does, whether that be sooner under Republican rule or slightly later under the Democrats?

by Yaybob (12 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 174 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 9:00:38 AM

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I thought about this article constantly since I wrote it. Why did I write it was my question to myself. I constantly feel like I'm shoveling sh*t against the tide, and I believe I am. The tide is coming in, whether I like it or not. When I listened to these mindless idiots telling me we are fighting in Iraq for the peoplw who died on 9/11 and to proctect our children. I used to hit the side of my head with the heel of my hand. I figured out why I care though, its in my last article. It's the military people that are in Iraq dying while Pelosi and Bush make nice-nice before they start clawing each other to get that share of the Corporate dollar, you know; the manna that runs these politicians lives. What a world, what a shame. Sometimes I get so depressed because I once believed in America and in humanity. I don't know what I believe in anymore. I see Obama being touted as a new hope, when everyone who really follows this knows that hes just another corporate lackey like the rest of them.

by Timothy V. Gatto (348 articles, 177 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 574 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 10:19:22 AM

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Your a good man and I am saddened to see you so distraught, especially since I'm pretty certain that I contributed to it with my comment. And I have misgivings about the negative prognostication, but I feel compelled to share it with the fragment of this country that I still respect and with which identify because [a] I sincerely believe what I am saying and [b] if it's correct, it's important. There is no reason not to have hope and to work for a better country if you are also cognizant of the possibility that things could get very dark here in a hurry if the Democrats don't start speaking and behaving more like the founding fathers and less like the Republicans and have prepared for that. Well, there is one reason not to hope if it is not justified. As I suggested to somebody else on this site recently, somebody who was also distraught and despairing, if it is false hope, it condemns you to dying a thousand deaths. It is important to recognize if and when the problem is terminal and not remediable. It hurts so much to fight the losing psychological battle of false hope. Why dash against the rocks repeatedly and die a thousand deaths when you can say your last rites and move on if that is what the future holds. It's not like anybody can help these people. And if and when death to the republic is inevitable, it is valuable to recognize that because letting go is therapeutic and allows the grieving process to progress and mature to acceptance. I've completed my Kubler-Ross stages of grief: denial (where the right is now), anger (where many others are now), bargaining (what do I have to do to reverse this, where many more are), despair (where most of the cognoscenti are after years of being aware of the problem), and finally acceptance (it's all good, I'm outta here). What a ride and what a relief to be done with it. Without permission to yourself to to pay your respects and move on, you are forced to linger and fight with bloody fists for too long. Let me reprint more of the comment from which I excerpted that bit above for purposes of context: "Like you, I have lost all legitimate hope. But that is not as painful as it might sound for me anymore. I have divorced myself mentally (and soon physically) from America. It is like an abusive and self-abusive lapsed alcoholic that I once loved but can no longer respect and don't want to be around any longer. The America I loved is dead and gone, and I've passed through all of my stages of grief (you know, denial, anger, bargaining and despair first) now to acceptance. I see it as a terminally ill patient not dead yet but not salvageable either. "There are a few reasons why we should welcome or at least accept this. "(1) America is pathological now and I do not believe it can be renovated. It must be razed and rebuilt from the ashes ground up. A new government and a better Constitution (who thought we'd ever think such a thought) are needed. Let this one go. "(2) It's only just that the American people take a beating for their irresponsibility, arrogance, selfishness and deliberate ignorance. This is criminal negligence on the part of an entire population, and anybody who is not American can see that this country has a big, condign spanking in store for it when its father gets home so to speak. Junior needs and deserves a rebuke. "(3) It hurts so much to fight the losing psychological battle of false hope. Why dash against the rocks repeatedly and die a thousand deaths when you can say your last rites and move on. It's not like anybody can help these people. "(4) The American people need to relearn the lessons that the first tyrant George taught them two and a half centuries ago. The colonials understood why separation of church and state and warrants were important. The American people don't, and they need to relearn this. It's not coming from a book, either. They will have to enroll in the school of very hard knocks to learn. Things can't get better without getting much worse for a prolonged period first, so it might as well play itself out quickly as slowly. This is the main reason to embrace the horror to follow, and a good reason to get out of its way. "That being said, the long-term future (say 50-100 years from now) is not as bleak as the next several decades (the rest of our lives, unfortunately) promise to be. But for me in my fifties, the game is all played out and it is time to be moving on. I will not share in the consequences of this failure of stewardship if I can help it, as I don't feel connected anymore to the American people. Like you, I was not the problem, and I haven't forgotten the names that I was called by half of them for protesting during the rush to war: traitor, coward, appeaser, terrorist sympathizer, America hater, etc." I gave myself permission to turn my back on these people and this government and it has done wonders for my mental health. Plus, after awhile, you start to feel like somebody watching an avalanche coming at him and hoping that something will stop it when there is no apparent cavalry on the horizon to effect a rescue. That's what I mean by unjustified or false hope. I hope this helps.

by Yaybob (12 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 174 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 6:50:58 PM

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Why do you read and contribute? There must be a part of you that is waiting for an in, a way to shake up the American pscyhe so to speak. I have a hard time turning my back on this country, I have spent so much time in it's service. Like you I'm in my fifties. I fought against Vietnam and I absolutly hated Jane Fonda, still do. I agreed that the war was wrong, but there is a way to protest and a way not to. Her sitting on that anti-aircraft gun still pisses me off. I, like you don't really believe that the American are worth getting agina over if they can't even help themselves. Even on this site they are still playing the game that political parties matter. Behind closed doors, you couldn't tell a Republican and a Democrat. They are game players that don't trust anyone and believe that they are in a giant poker game. I might just take a vacation for awhile. I've got a few people that e-mail me and do support what I'm saying. I wish I could get some people together into a coalition that the political parties would have to take seriously. I tried it with The Liberal Party, but couldn't get anyove to forsake the Democrats they grew up with. I still care fot the guys and girls in uniform, but they weren't drafted. Too bad this thread coudn't be joined by more people with something between their ears. I'm almost where you say you are, but i can't totally let go. Watch Pelosi make a fool out of everyone... she hasn't got a clue. I enjoy talking with you. Was that you that got mad whenI suggessted we throw Mama from the train?

by Timothy V. Gatto (348 articles, 177 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 574 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 9:29:21 PM

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No, Tim, I don't know what you are referring to when you say throw Mama off a train apart from a movie of that title. Why do I read and write? I read because I am always looking for clues to help confirm or disconfirm what I'm thinking. It's important to think independently - for ones self - now more than ever. And with the extreme degree of pathology in our culture, nothing is too far fetched. So, there's a need to think in broad terms and conspiracies, but to keep grounded in the facts. For example, I never would have conceived of the possibility that Rove threw the elections to the Democrats. Now, I look for evidence to support or argue against that conclusion. It's important, because I have been assuming all along that the Democrats would never win again now that the neocons control the ballot boxes. So how do I digest the fact that they did? I would have had to conclude that I was wrong by default since it would be the only possibility not excluded. That is still a possibility, but it is also possible that, as has been suggested elsewhere, that this was a temporary measure to falsely restore confidence in the democratic process and to shift blame to the left. Possible. So, I read for clues that that is right or wrong. That is why I read. Why do I contribute? I identify with people like you. There is still a kernel of the American people that is worth saving and that can be reached. They are the only people that I care to help, and the help I offer is to expose them to the possibility that they are tilting at windmills, especially when they get as exasperated as you and one or two others. Also, I try to help people cope with the grief of loss. The smartest understand the magnitude of the problem, the reach of the monster into our world, and they understand that America may be agonal and struggling to take its last breaths. But if (or, if I am correct, when) this ship of state sinks, a lot of good people are going down who stayed too long to fight for a memory and slew of unworthy people. Tim, I cannot forgive anybody that was so uninvolved with their country that they still trusted and believed Bush enough to vote for him in 2004, and that's around half of them. Add the Kerry voters who were just guessing at random and you have a buttload of derelict and irresponsible people that frankly, I don't care about any more and I am unwilling to risk my life, freedom or property for. They have failed us all. So I see someone like you and I worry for you. Yes, fight the good fight, but don't risk too much too long for such people as these. They would betray you in a heartbeat and can easily be turned against us as they were turned against the pre- and post-invasion dissenters and protesters. I didn't hear but a small handful of voices objecting to that treatment, and none were conservative. They are Republicans (and if Christian, they are Christians) before they are Americans. They will side with a fellow Christian or fellow Republican and turn against you if all that you have in common with them is your citizenship. Screw the quislings and cowards. I'm cursed with this vision of doom. I'm not a pessimistic person, and pessimism is absent from most of my opinions. But on this matter, I see very dark days ahead and I don't see any way to defend against the wills of the puppet masters better than to get out of the high tech surveillance and policing areas that the states have (and will continue to) become. I feel safer outside of America. I don't want to live in a target that provokes its enemies and then doesn't defend against their retaliation. Somebody's going to get nuked, and I don't want to be close or downwind when it happens. Economic collapse will follow wherever I go, but I don't want to expose myself to the police state and I don't respect the American people (apart from the kernel that I encounter on liberal posting sites) or their perverse and insipid culture enough to want to live among them. Equally importantly, I REFUSE TO HELP PAY FOR THAT WAR OR SERVICE THAT RIDICULOUS DEBT, so I must stop earning and paying taxes to the neocons. I'd like to see more of that all around. It's not so hard to turn your back on what America has become, and it may be the most ethical option open to us. Don't confuse this America with Payne and Jefferson's America. That one died. Strangled, really. This demented remnant is not lovable. It is angry, ignorant, fearful, superstitious and generally infantile. It is no longer qualified to self-govern so it won't. It is cruel and disloyal and lacking in the virtues. Do not forget about yourself. Take care of yourself. Take care of your mind, and beware that your body doesn't end up in some concentration camp under martial law. THEY AIN'T WORTH IT. They wouldn't do the same for you. They already have turned their backs on us and will again. That's why I read and post. As for hanging around, we are in the process of relocating. We have our new home and we are selling this one in the states. It's a slow market, but we want to take our time and do it right rather than wait until the last minute and have to run in the night or hold a fire sale. Plus, I want to save a little more before I give up my career which I can't take with me. That's the value of the Democrat's victory to me: it slows the inexorable march to fascism a little, maybe a year or two, and buys me a little more time to sell and save before the roof caves in. Plus, it's hard for me to completely let go, try as I might.

by Yaybob (12 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 174 comments) on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 at 2:32:48 AM

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