I have had a number of conversations with people about the separation of church and state since moving to South Carolina. I suspect that the notions I have heard expressed are not endemic to this state only, I believe that some of the opinions that I have heard go beyond this state's borders. The statements that people have made to me are so outrageous and so offbeat as to seem ludicrous. I talked it over with some people I know well, and have found out that what I thought was an accepted part of our country's heritage and political standard, is not. I have found to my chagrin, my views seem to be in the minority in this day and age, and frankly, it scares the hell out of me.
When I was in my formative years, it was taught in school (American History) that the pilgrims came to this country to escape religious persecution. I remember the puritans settled in Massachusetts and the New England area to better practice their beliefs. Throughout our early colonization, different religious groups came to America to escape the Church of England. The memories of the persecution they suffered while in England were passed down to generations of colonists until we finally separated from Great Britain and formed our own Union.
When The Continental Congress was convened to put together a new government in an experiment unprecedented in modern history to that time, it mulled over the question of religion and government. I may be wrong, but I was taught that the Continental Congress decided that religion was a personal issue, and that everyone was entitled to believe, or to not believe in a spiritual power, or God as some prefer, and that the state was not to interfere with those beliefs. They called it freedom of worship, or freedom of religion. At the same time, and in almost the same context, because of the myriad beliefs that people held, even in those times, our forefathers, in their infinite wisdom, also decided there should be a separation of church and state. Precisely because different people have different beliefs, the inclusion of religion in the political life of our country, would indubitably lead to differences of opinions and along with the very nature of politics, lead to such a difference of opinion, that the best way to reach a consensus between people of differing faiths, was to take religion out of the political equation; thus the separation of church and state.
Could you imagine the confusion in the House of Representatives if every bill introduced had to pass scrutiny of every representative's religion? True, at times members of the House and the Senate will let their religious views dictate the way they vote, but rarely will you hear a lawmaker use a tenant of their particular religion be used as a way to endorse or oppose a bill. Think of it this way; a bill comes before the House proposing that all businesses should close on Sunday because it says in the Ten Commandments to keep the Sabbath holy. The people of the Jewish faith have a problem. Their religion says that Saturday, not Sunday is the Sabbath. Many shoppers would have a problem with that because the only day they get off work is Sunday. The list would go on and on. Here's another example; Catholics, Lutherans and other Christian religions want Good Friday to be a National Holiday. Now here come the Jewish Americans, the Muslim Americans, The Hindu Americans, The Buddhist Americans and a host of other religous people demanding that their holidays be observed also. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, correct? I could sit here and write thousands of pages of why our founding fathers wanted to separate church and state, but the main reason, and here it is; because of the way people were persecuted in "merry old England" that caused them to emigrate to America in the first place. Our nation's founders did not want to emulate the government that they were seceding from. It makes sense too. This separation of church and state has worked well for our nation, enabling America to become a haven for people of all religions. This is one of the foremost reasons why America has become the greatest nation on the planet.
This is what I have tried to tell my fundamentalist Christian friends in South Carolina. They tell me that their pastors have told them that this is not what our founding fathers meant by separation of church and state, that they really wanted the United States to become a "Christian" nation, and that God should be the centerpiece of this nation. I disagree. I will probably make many enemies by saying this, but I feel that our constitution was not designed to make the United States a "Christian" nation, but rather a nation where any person may believe as they see fit. It's called religious freedom; it is not an evil thing, quite the opposite. This is precisely what makes this country so great. It also allows Americans to be who they are. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, Atheist, Mormon, whatever, we are all Americans, no matter what our religious beliefs.
http://liberalpro.blogspot.com
Tim was banned from the site for posting private email from the publisher to him on his blog, and then attacking the publisher and the site in emails and articles. OEN has no responsibility to publish articles from people who attack the site.
Tim's accusations that he was banned for his political positions are untrue. Check his articles. He repetitively wrote about and had published exactly the things he claimed he was banned for doing.
Former Chairman of the Liberal Party of America, Tim is a retired Army Sergeant. He currently lives in South Carolina. A regular contributor to OpEdNews, he is the author of Kimchee Kronicles and is currently at work on a new novel.
This is the whole point of separation of church and state.History and current events prove this.If I impose my idea of Christianity it would be a different world. I do not beleive in capital pushishment ,premptive war and believe in Christ's teaching ,of turn the other cheek.Forgiving one's enemies and judge not lest you be judged. Now I strive to practice his teaching and often fall short,but I keep on trying. I will not attemtpt to interpert other religions for my knowledge is limited.And that is the main reason church and state should be separate.We all have our own beliefs and we have a duty as citizens to respect each other's viewpoint. I said respect not practice .Most of the important personal actions we take in life are private and no one else has a right to impose their beleifs on us. My relationship with God is my own and only I will be judged by God for my actions. Now once I take my actions into the public arena does society have any input. I cannot drive drunk or shoplift or lie under oath. Oh there are a lot of other things I cannot do,but time limits me . So you see it is good I cannot impose my Chrisitanity on everyone,isn't it?
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cluelessfl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 184 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 9:53:40 AM
Who is to say who is right. If God is or what ever you chose to call him or her is so powerful. How does mankind know what is right. One thing that Christians fail to realize that the king James bible was written for him, If I was writer for I would write what he wanted in fear. So many wars were started over religion. Our President claims to be a Christian but has killed more people than any one, When he was Governor of Texas he set a record for Excutions. Then he invaded Iraq.
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Gregory A Reece (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 54 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 11:03:35 AM
"...at times members of the House and the Senate will let their religious views dictate the way they vote, but rarely will you hear a lawmaker use a ***tenant*** of their particular religion be used as a way to endorse or oppose a bill."
I'm sure you must have meant TENET. Otherwise, a fine article. I think you defined the situation very accurately - about this not having been founded as a "Christian" nation. Thank you for sharing your views.
by
Veroushka (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 8 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 12:40:49 PM
Great article, Tim, and here's my 2¢ worth. I really irritate people when I say this here in Montana. Try this:
(Before, I said 'google.' Since the news yesterday that google is finalizing a dastardly plan, I'll never say "do google" again.) I just did it on a web search, but I'm certain other sites carry the info.
Type,in the search bar, "Founding Fathers, and religion."
Our Founding Fathers were nearly all Deists.
Makes the "right-on" religious angry when you point out that the USA was probably not intended to be secular. This is the opposite of what that lady in Florida, who stole the 1st bush presidency claims. But it's the truth. It's freedom of religion, not faith based.
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Pat Herrick (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 167 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 12:41:29 PM
Mr. Gatto, a very good article and very close to the point. After one thousand years of Roman Catholic dictorship (500-1500) and two hundred years of religious wars after the Reformation (1500-1700), with Roman Catholics killing Lutherans, Presbyterians and Congregationalist killing Anabaptist, Puritans and Church of England killing each other in one religious war after another, Jefferson, Madison, Baptist and Quakers banned together to make sure there was no connection between government and religion. If you wish to read the Baptist position on Church and State, just Google in Roger Williams or Rhode Island; read Roger Williams' Colony Charter and the Rhode Island State Constitution based on that charter.
I am a full time Southern Baptist minister and have been for forty-four years. It breaks my heart to see us make a complete reversal of our Separation of Church and State position. This reversal began in 1980. Southern Baptist have drank at the fountain of Jerry Falwell (Fundalmental/Independent Baptist), James Dobson (Focus on the Family), James Kennedy (Presbyterian), Ralph Reed, Pat Robinson (who says he is a Baptist but is really a Pentecostal). The right wing has used the abortion issue to throw the whole Southern Baptist Convention in becoming a caucus of the Repulican Party. Abortion has little to do with it if the truth were known. As in all things political, "Follow the MONEY." Money is like the strings of controlling the puppet. God up the string far enough. You will find the power that moves the Relgious Right Wing. It is no wonder that Pat Robinson is worth 100 million dollars, a real imitation of Christ. Is it not? NOT.
My hope is eternal that the Convention will eventually decide to return to be the protector of "the poor, the fatherless, the widow, and the helpless (no representation in law)."
Thanks,
Phil Ratliff, pastor
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pratliff94 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 969 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 4:28:57 PM
Abortion has everything to do with it as the control of women is their end and money is merely the means. In patriarchy the bottom line is not money. It is men.
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Mar (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments)
on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 5:03:19 PM
I grew up in a America that kept the Sabbath day, everything was closed on sundays. Maybe a movie theater was open but nothing else. Sundays were dead, we drove maybe 15 miles to my grandmothers house and the highways were also empty. I have to amend that, resturants and bars were open.
Then without warning the blue laws were overturned and Sundays became another day. Also the Mall syndrome of the 70's raised the standard of commercialism, ruled the Sabbath Day and everything else.
I doubt very much that a Buddhist would celibrate very much in the open, since Buddha created more of a science then a religion.
The separation of Church and State is very simple, and most born agains like to complicate there live's and ours.
These Guilt ridden people have only one thing on there minds and that is to do God's work. Good stuff but!
Well, since our beginning as a country, God's work was done very well and in a mysterious sort of way.
And religious freedom was what god wanted and the citizens of this country wanted.
Adolf Hitler was a man of God and he even had God speak to him, sound familiar, this idiot used a god of his understanding to kill off millions of gods children.
Whenever politicians need a help getting there people to obey them they insert GOD.........
Do I make myself clear, is there some sort of a pattern here.
So lets go back to this important document the CONSTITUTION and read it very carefully and try and understand every important word. It was written my men of GOD and the constitution worked very well for 230 years, and it will continue to work if we follow it.
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anthny (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 39 comments)
on Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 8:51:54 AM
8 comments
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