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October 31, 2008 at 13:55:13
Senator Obama's Citizenship Lawsuits by Mad Jayhawk |
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Phillip Berg's lawsuit asking Senator Obama to provide documentation of his citizenship was thrown out recently on a technicality by a Pennsylvanian judge who ruled that Berg lacked standing to bring the lawsuit. Berg will appeal the ruling. Meanwhile at least 7 other lawsuits contending that Senator Obama is not a US Citizen have been filed. Senator Obama has, thus far, not produced the documents requested in the lawsuits. The lawsuits would all obviously disappear if he did. He has elected instead to fight these using legal maneuvers to get the lawsuits thrown out of court. The US Constitution is very clear about the qualifications for President of the US are. The Constitution requires that the president be a natural born citizen of the US. The lawsuits contend that Senator Obama is not and he should produce proper documentation that he is. Now if Senator Obama and the DNC can run out the clock on these lawsuits and Senator Obama is elected and the courts rule that he is not a citizen we will then have a major constitutional crises. What happens then? Should he immediately resign? If he does resign before being sworn in, does the Vice President replace him? If he does not resign, will a Democratic Congress impeach him? If he is not impeached for committing fraud what reprecussions will Congress face? If he resigns after being elected and Senator Biden replaces him is this fair to the American People who made a choice between Senators Obama and McCain not Senators Biden and McCain? This has the potential to be a big legal and political mess. 
The bottom line is that Senator Obama knows whether he is a citizen or not and if he is he should have the documents to prove it and should present them. If he is not a citizen, he should immediately resign and let the American People chose between Senators McCain and Biden. If he does not have the documents to prove he is a citizen and is elected, he should prosecuted for fraud.
As you can imagine there has been quite a bit of commentary on this subject on the Internet. The Daily Kos published a copy of Senator Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate in an effort to show that Senator Obama is indeed a natural born citizen. Senator Obama's own website copied this birth certificate and put it on the campaign's website. It has been shown by many that the birth certificate may not be authentic and was most likely a Photo Shopped copy of Senator Obama's sister's Hawaiian birth certificate even though she was born in Indonesia. Who gave the Daily Kos Senator Obama's sister's birth certificate? Who knew that the birth certificate presented as Senator Obama's was unauthentic? And it is very suspicious that in the wake of all these lawsuits, Senator Obama flies to Hawaii to visit his 'ailing' grandmother in October without Michelle and his children but with reporters and photographers and, it is rumored, lawyers. He also vacationed in Hawaii when Berg first filed his lawsuit.
This is a copy of lawsuit filed in Washington State:
Coversheet
| STEVEN R MARQUIS Plaintiff
vs.
SAMUEL SUMNER REED, ACTING IN THE OFFICE OF WASHINGTON STATE, SECRETARY OF STATE Defendant
| CIVIL ACTION NO___________ |
1. MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFF'S MOTION FOR AN INJUNCTIVE RELIEF ORDER
1.1. Plaintiff Steven R Marquis, [hereinafter "Plaintiff"] hereby offers this memorandum in support of his motion for injunctive relief, to demand performance of constitutional duties related to the Office of Washington State, Secretary of State by Samuel Sumner Reed, a/k/a Sam Reed, [hereinafter Defendant"-].
1.2. Plaintiff's complaint challenges the presidential candidate Mr. Barack Obama's eligibility to run for the Office of President and demands that the Office of Secretary of State make such determination by acquisition of original documentation or by receipt of verifiable information from another government entity so charged with overseeing the election process such as the Federal Elections Commission.
1.3. Plaintive argues that when a challenge is received by the Washington State, Secretary of State to the qualification for office of a candidate appearing on the Washington State Ballot that the entire burden of proof falls on the Candidate for Office to present such information and documentation to the Washington State, Secretary of State as would be normal and customary to establish ones minimum qualifications for office.
1.4. Plaintiff argues that the Office of Secretary of State has the Constitutional and Statutory authority to make such determinations as part of certifying and executing fair and open elections.
1.5. Plaintiff argues that is it only sufficient to show reasonable cause for complaint to the Secretary of State for his Office to require documentation of the respective candidate relevant to determination of minimum qualification; that lacking explicit statute defining the requisite documentation that the Secretary of State has the intrinsic authority to set those reasonable standards that would establish certain confidence in the people in the electoral process.
1.6. Plaintiff seeks focused and expedited review, to protect the veracity of the electoral process and maintain the people's confidence in the government
2. COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF - PRELIMINARY STATEMENT
2.1. Article II, Section I of the United States Constitution, states in particular part, "No Person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.".
2.2. Mr. Barack H. Obama is a candidate for United States Office of the President. However, Mr. Obama must meet the qualifications specified for the United States Office of the President, which is, he must be a "natural born" citizen. Mr. Obama has failed to demonstrate that he is a "natural born" citizen. There are other legal challenges before the Federal Courts regarding aspects of lost or dual citizenship. That challenge in an of itself further demonstrates plaintiff's argument that reasonable doubt exists as to the veracity of the electoral process that would allow such fundamental questions exist at this late hour preceding the election.
2.3. The Washington State office of Secretary of State is responsible for the veracity of the Washington State election process from verifying ahead of time the qualification of the voters, the ballots themselves, the candidates and the final counting and certification of results. That office is intended to be non-biased and to provide the critical sense of fairness and correctness necessary for the people to have faith in the fundamental underpinnings of the democratic basis for our republic.
2.4. There is a reasonable and common expectation by the people that to qualify for the ballot that the individuals so listed meet the minimum qualifications as outlined in the constitutions and that proof of those minimum qualifications has been received by the officials executing the election process. Heretofore, only a signed statement from the candidate attesting to meeting those qualifications was requested and received by the Office of the Secretary of State with no verification demanded. This practice, it should be noted, represents a much lower standard than that demanded of one when requesting even a driver's license. Since the office of Secretary of state has at its core the mission of certifying and establishing the veracity of the election process, this complaint seeks a directive to the Washington State Office of Secretary of State to receive appropriate verifiable documentation and certify any individual's qualification for Office whose basic credentials for that Office have been challenged by formal request to the Office of Secretary of State from a citizen of Washington State.
2.5. In the case of individuals seeking the Office of President of the United States, the US constitution prescribes a system of electors where citizens of the respective state have a state controlled election wherein electors representing the interest of the named individual on the state ballot are so elected to represent the interests of the respective state at the electoral college. Thus, we do not have a federal ballot controlled by the federal government; we have a Washington State ballot where we elect electors who in turn represent the named individual on the ballot. That is one more reason that the Washington Secretary of State has prevue over the certification of not just the counts of the ballots so cast, but also the veracity of the contents of the ballot.
2.6. This complaint of failure to carry out a key task in our election system could be satisfied should verification of candidate qualifications be received from original or certified documents from primary sources or from a verifiable report generated from government agencies such as the Federal Elections Commission. It is the Washington State, Secretary of State's duty to certify the veracity of documents or reports so received.
2.7. To avert likely civil unrest and a constitutional crisis which would certainly accrue after the election through laborious legal challenges and impeachment process, this complaint seeks to resolve such complaints prior to the election. It was incumbent on the candidates to present such documentation, but to date Mr. Obama has failed to do so.
2.8. This complaint seeks specifically to verify through the office of the Washington Secretary of State that Mr. Obama is a "natural born" citizen.
2.9. At this point, Mr. Obama has not allowed independent or official access to his birth records and supporting hospital records. Mr. Obama's citizenship status has and is being challenged in the federal courts which challenge will cast doubt on the veracity of the electoral system regardless of outcome if not resolved prior to the election. The Washington State, Secretary of State Office is specifically charged with certifying and guaranteeing the veracity of official documents and overseeing the elections to wit the people's confidence in the fundamental aspect of democracy is maintained. To date, in this regard, Secretary of State Sam Red has not carried out that fundamental duty.
2.10. The Federal Elections Commission FEC is generally tasked with providing oversight and verifications of federal candidates. To date the FEC has not produced either certification or verifiable documentation regarding the candidates basic qualifications for office. Lacking that certification from the FEC, this complaint request the Washington State - Secretary of State Sam Reed to formally request of Hawaii State Health Department officials to produce forthwith a certified copy of his "Vault" [original long version] Birth Certificate.
2.11. This complaint requests that Washington State - Secretary of State Sam Reed formally requests primary backup materials if they exist of hospital records that would lend veracity to a Hawaii live birth declaration. A court order of discovery is requested to assist that investigation directed to the respective hospital if so identified on a live birth certificate.
2.12. Should Mr. Obama be discovered, whether by virtue of malfeasance, or negligence, or ignorance on his part to not have a valid certified US birth certificate or to otherwise due to have been revealed by such examination of original records to be ineligible for the Office of President of the United States of America and thereby his nomination be declared void by the appropriate authorities acting under the law, Plaintiff as well as other Americans will suffer irreparable harm including but not limited to:
2.12.1. Functional, or actual, disenfranchisement of large numbers of citizens, being members of the Democratic Party, who would have been deprived of the ability to choose a qualified nominee of their liking;
2.12.2. Irreparable harm to the structure and integrity of the Democratic Party and the Democratic National Committee. In turn, this too would lead to disenfranchisement.
2.12.3. If the candidate Mr. Obama were to secure the election and later be discovered ineligible, the resulting constitutional and national security crisis that would ensue would generate a severe and genuine likelihood of civil disturbance by virtue of reaction to said disenfranchisement and upset.
2.13. It was well expected that after all the public concern that has been raised over the preceding months now that Mr. Obama would have released for public or official scrutiny the relevant documentation to back up his claim of qualification as a "natural born citizen". His reaction to public concern and his recent actions in Federal District Court 9/24/2008 demonstrate that Mr. Obama has no intentions of releasing said documentation for review or cannot because they do not exist. The late hour of this request was dictated by the delaying tactics of the candidate Mr. Obama, and the non-responsiveness to Plaintiff's repeated request to the Office Washington State - Secretary of State Sam Reed.
3. JURISDICTION AND VENUE
3.1. As we do not have federal ballot per se, Washington State, through the office of the Washington State, Secretary of State creates its own ballot and supervises the same, electing electors to represent our choice for the Office of President. This case arises under the Washington Constitution RCW 42.04.020 and Section 15, Article III, Section 17 of the Washington State Constitution and Chapter 43.07 RCW. and the laws of the United States and presents a state question within this Court's jurisdiction.
4. PARTIES
4.1. Plaintiff, Steven Russel Marquis [hereinafter "Plaintiff'], is an adult individual with a home address of 34077 SE 56th St Fall City, WA 98024. Citizen USA.
4.2. Defendant, Samuel Sumner Reed, a/k/a Sam Reed is an adult individual with an office address of PO Box 40220 Olympia, WA 98504-0220. Washington State, Secretary of State.
5. FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS THAT DEMOSTRATE THE NEED TO PROOF THE CANDIDATE'S MINIMUM CONSTITUTIONAL QUALIFICATION.
5.1. These allegations and statements are not intended to be proof of the status of Mr. Obama's citizenship or lack thereof. That will be determined in the venue of the US District court. The listing of the allegations detailed below are included to demonstrate the reasonable assertion of the need for the Washington State, Secretary of State to reestablish public confidence in the veracity of the electoral process and the obvious need for precertification as to a candidate's meeting the minimum constitutional requirements.
5.2. By the U.S. Constitution, in order to run for office of the President, you must be a "natural born citizen" and you may not hold dual citizenship or multiple citizenships with foreign countries. U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 1.
5.3. There are questions as to where Obama was actually born; in the United States or abroad but subsequently registered in Hawaii. There are further questions regarding Obama's United States citizenship, if he ever held such, being expatriated and his failure to regain his citizenship by taking the oath of allegiance once he turned eighteen (18) years of age. There are additional questions regarding Obama's multi-citizenships with foreign countries, which he may still maintain. To date, Obama has refused to prove he is qualified under the U.S. Constitution and his eligibility to run as President of the United States despite requests and recent opportunities to do so in Federal Court.
5.4. The "certificate" that Mr. Obama has posted on his official WEB site is a "Certification of Live Birth," and not a "Birth Certificate" from Hawaii. There is no indication on even this certificate as to specifically where the birth took place.
5.5. Researchers have claimed to have been unable to locate any birthing records in island hospitals for Barak Obama's mother. Mr. Obama has offered none for review.
5.6. Three forensic document experts have published extensive reports claiming that there is evidence of tampering on even the Obama WEB site displayed certificate.
5.7. Numerous Freedom of Information Requests have been sent to Officials in Hawaii with no response from the public officials nor has Mr. Obama granted access for release of the information lending to the concern over the veracity of the attestation on the candidate's application for candidacy for the office of President of the United States.
5.8. The facts are undisputed by Obama that his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, was a U.S. citizen however, his father, Barack Obama, Sr., was a citizen of Kenya. Obama's parents, according to divorce records, were married on or about February 2, 1961.
5.9. Obama claims he was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4, 1961; however, has never given the name of the hospital he was born in; whereas there are reports that Obama's grandmother on his father's side, half brother and half sister claim Mr. Barack H. Obama was born in Kenya. Reports further reflect that Mr. Obama's mother went to Kenya during her pregnancy. Wayne Madsen, Journalist with Online Journal as a contributing writer and published an article on June 9, 2008 stating that a research team went to Mombassa, Kenya, and located a Certificate Registering the birth of Barack Obama, Jr. at a Kenya Maternity Hospital, to his father, a Kenyan citizen and his mother, a U.S. citizen. There are claims of records of a "registry of birth" for Obama, on or about August 8, 1961 in the public records office in Hawaii, but these have not been released for scrutiny. It is alleged in the Federal trial and is a matter of much general speculation that Mr. Obama's mother was prevented from boarding a flight from Kenya to Hawaii at her late stage of pregnancy, which apparently was a normal restriction to avoid births during a flight. It is likely that Stanley Ann Dunham (Obama) gave birth to Obama in Kenya, after which she flew to Hawaii and registered Obama's birth.
5.10. Regarding the alleged birth of Barack Hussein Obama in Honolulu, Hawaii, it is variously circulated that Obama's birth is reported as occurring at two (2) separate hospitals, Kapiolani Hospital and Queens Hospital. Obama has provided no proof of birth from of either of these or any other US based facility. He has made no effort to address these public concerns.
5.11. There are no published or known hospital birthing records for Stanley Ann Dunham (Obama), Obama's mother. There are only claims of records of a "registry of birth"- for Obama, on or about August 8, 1961 in the public records office in Hawaii.
5.12. There is even a Canadian Birth Certificate posted on the Internet in the name of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.; however, the date of birth shows to be August 23, 1961
5.13. At the time of Obama's birth in 1961, Kenya was a British Colony. Subsequently, under the Independence Constitution of Kenya, Mr. Barack H. Obama became a Kenyan citizen on December 12, 1963. There are no indications or reports that Mr. Obama ever renounced that dual citizenship conferred either by nature of birth or by virtue of his father's Kenyan citizenship. On Mr. Obama's Senate web site, Mr. Obama acknowledges his father holds Kenyan nationality but avoids addressing that that he (Mr. Obama) also held/holds Kenyan nationality.
5.14. If in fact Obama was born in Kenya, the laws on the books in the United States at the time of his birth stated if a child is born abroad and one parent was a U.S. Citizen, which would have been his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, Obama's mother would have had to live ten (10) years in the United States, five (5) of which were after the age of fourteen (14). At the time of Obama's birth, his mother was only eighteen (18) and therefore did not meet the residency requirements under the law to give her son (Obama) U.S. Citizenship much less the status of "natural born." The laws in effect at the time of Obama's birth prevented U.S. Citizenship at birth of children born abroad to a U.S. Citizen parent and a non-citizen parent, if the citizen parent was under the age of nineteen (19) at the time of the birth of the child. Obama's mother did not qualify under the law on the books to register Obama as a "natural born" citizen. Section 301(a)(7) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27,1952,66 Stat. 163, 235, 8 U.S.c. §1401(b), Matter of S-F-and G-, 2 I & N Dec. 182 (B.I.A.) approved (Att'y Gen. 1944). Obama would have only been Naturalized and a Naturalized citizen is not qualified nor eligible to run for Office of the President. U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section Clause 4.
5.15. Furthermore, if Obama had been born in Kenya, his birth father Barack Obama, Sr. was a citizen of Kenya; therefore, Obama would have automatically become a citizen of Kenya.
5.16. The Nationality Act of 1940 provided for the loss of citizenship when the person became naturalized upon the naturalization of his or her parent having custody of such person. Obama's mother expatriated her U.S. Citizenship when she married Lolo Soetoro, a citizen of Indonesia and relocated herself and her son (Obama) to Indonesia.
5.17. Obama was enrolled by his parents in a public school, Fransiskus Assisi School in Jakarta, Indonesia. Plaintiff has available copies of the school registration where it clearly states Obama's name as Barry Soetoro and lists his citizenship as Indonesian, Obama's father is listed as Lolo Soetoro, Obama's date of birth and place of birth are listed as August 4,1961 in Honolulu and Obama's Religion is listed as Islam. This document was verified by television show Inside Edition, whose reporter, Matt Meagher took the actual footage of the school record.
5.18. In or about 1971, Obama's mother sent Obama back to Hawaii. Obama was ten (10) years of age upon his return to Hawaii.
5.19. Sometime after the return of Obama to Hawaii, Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham returned to Hawaii and divorced her husband, Lolo Soetoro. At the time of divorce, Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham could have regained her U.S. citizenship. In order to regain her citizenship, Obama's mother would have had to take the oath of allegiance required. Such oath of allegiance may be taken abroad before a diplomatic or consular of the United States, or in the United States before the Attorney General or the judge or clerk of a court. Such Oath of Allegiance would have been entered in the records of the appropriate embassy, legation, consulate, court or the Attorney General and upon demand, a certified copy of the proceedings, including a copy of the oath administered, under the seal of the embassy, legation, consulate, court or the Attorney General shall be delivered. The certified copy shall be evidence of the facts stated therein before any court of record or judicial tribunal and in any department or agency of the Government of the United States. 8U.S.c.§1435.
5.20. Obama's mother failed to take the oath in order to regain her U.S. Citizenship. Therefore, Obama would not have been able to regain his U.S. Citizenship until he turned eighteen (18) years and then only after he took the Oath of Allegiance before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States, or in the U.S. before the Attorney General or the judge or clerk of court. Since the Oath of Allegiance would have been entered in the records of the appropriate embassy, legation, consulate, court or the Attorney General, then Obama should be able to produce in court a certified copy of the proceedings, including a copy of the oath administered. No such copy has been to date produced for public examination.
5.21. After many attempts of the public to obtain Obama's Certificate of Birth, a Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) was placed on Obama's campaign website. However, as posted all over the internet, three (3) independent Document Forensic Experts performed extensive forensic testing on the Certificate of Live Birth as posted on Obama's campaign website. The Forensic Expert findings were that the posted Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) was a forgery. It was further discovered that the posted COLB had evidence of having been created from an altered/forged from a COLB issued to Maya Kasandra Soetoro, born in 1970. Maya Kasandra Soetoro is Obama's half sister who was born in Indonesia and her birth was later registered in Hawaii. The altered and allegedly forged COLB is still on Obama's website located at http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert
5.22. Even if Obama had and subsequently maintained his United States Citizenship, which citizenship he has failed before District Court to demonstrate, he may still carry citizenships in Kenya and/or Indonesia. These facts call into question what the constitution attempted to address regarding potently divided loyalties with foreign countries. Thus, Mr. Obama carries multiple citizenships and would be ineligible to run for President of the United States. United States Constitution, Article II, Section 1.
6. Failure to grant injunctive relief will realize these detriments:
6.1. Failing to officially and publically vet the status of the citizenship claims of Mr. Obama will cast a pall of doubt on the election process and taint the election results themselves.
6.2. Failure to grant injunctive relief would allow a potentially corrupted, fraudulent nomination and election process to continue.
6.3. Failure to grant injunctive relief demanding the Washington State, Secretary of State certify the minimum qualifications of challenged candidates not only allows, but promotes an overwhelming degree of disrespect and creates such a lack of confidence in voters of the primary and electoral process itself, so that it would cement a prevailing belief that no potential candidate has to obey the laws of this country, respect our election process, follow the Constitution, or even suffer any consequence for lying and defrauding voters to get onto the ballot when they have no chance of serving if they fraudulently manage to get elected.
6.4. As stated above, Plaintiff as well as all American citizens will suffer irreparable harm if injunctive relief is not granted. Plaintiff does not have any other way of redress regarding these very significant and important issues.
6.5. Despite many complaints, the FEC has failed Plaintiff and the American citizens by their failure to date to perform due diligence and inquire into Mr. Obama's eligibility to run for Office of the President. Lacking such certification, it is incumbent on the Washington State, Secretary of State to certify or decertify as to the eligibility for office before the election based on the availability of clear documentation demonstrating that minimum qualifications for the respective office has been met by candidates.
7. WHEREFORE, Plaintiff respectfully prays that this Court:
7.1. Grant injunctive relief demanding that Washington State, Secretary of State Sam Reed immediately acquire primary documents or certified copies from primary sources such as Health Department and hospital records or verifiable reports regarding same from the FEC.
7.2. Plaintiff requests Washington State, Secretary of State Sam Reed to immediately demand such verifiable report from the FEC or demand a certified copy of Obama's Certificate of Live Birth and subpoena as needed for the release hospital records if so claimed on said Live Birth Certificate to further prove he was born in Hawaii as Mr. Obama claims.
7.3. Direct Washington State, Secretary of State Sam Reed to certify or decertify the challenged candidates prior to the election based on the availability of clear documentation.
7.4. Plaintiff requests the Washington State, Secretary of State to immediately demand a certified copy of Obama's Oath of Allegiance proving he regained his United States Citizenship.
7.5. If Secretary Sam Reed is unable to document a certified record of Obama's oath of allegiance and birth and hospital records, Secretary of State Sam Reed must decertify Mr. Obama as a valid candidate for the office of President of the United States Office of the President under the United States Constitution, Article II, Section I;
7.6. Award Plaintiff such costs and fees applicable by law; and further relief as the Court deems just and proper.
Respectfully Submitted,
Steven R Marquis
34077 SE 56th St Fall City, WA 98024
425-698-7084
http://peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/Lawsuit_Sam_Reed/Complaint_Final.htm
VERIFICATION
I, STEVEN R MARQUIS, hereby state that I am the Plaintiff in this action and verify that the statements made in the foregoing Complaint for Injunctive Relief are true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information and belief. The undersigned understands that the statements therein are made subject to the penalties law relating to unsworn falsification to authorities.
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citizenship
I remember it being said that mccain was born in arizona before it became a state. so he is invaild to ????? by mike (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 92 comments) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:54:45 PM  (0+)
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Reply: Not the Issue
The Democratically controlled US Senate said that Senator McCain is qualified to run for president. They have not done the same for the Junior Senator from Illinois. McCain's citizenship is not the issue in these lawsuits. Obama's is. Further, as a point of interest, McCain has presented all of his birth documentation for inspection. Obama refuses to. It is disappointing to see the Berg lawsuit thrown out because the judge feels that Berg does not lack standing to bring the lawsuit. A US Citizen does not have standing to bring a lawsuit on a federal matter? To me that doesn't make sense. The Berg case will go to the Supreme Court. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 5:38:12 PM (0+)
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Reply: The State of Hawaii just issued Verification AGAIN
Obviously this has been in the Republican echo chamber and it led to the State of Hawaii to once again confirm the validity of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii making him a U.S. citizen. Article came out on the AP. It is running in every newspaper across the country. I think it is safe to say that it is the end of the line on this ridiculous Republican talking point. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iw1At-4G1xuE50oXVFRlBPfR3dqgD945OLU00 by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:51:18 AM (0+)
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Reply: Interesting, but
The AP story is very poorly written. Why? I would like to see an update that is more clearly written. No one other than 2 gentlemen in Hawaii have seen the vault copy of the birth certificate. What is so secret about it? I looked at my own and can't see anything on it that is incriminating or in the least bit interesting. It is baffling that this is an issue at all when it is so easy to take care of. Then there is the questions about the supposedly lying grandmother in Kenya who said he was born in Kenya and that she witnessed the birth. And there is also his mother's weird flight back to the US from Kenya around the time of his birth. And Senator Obama still has not addressed in detail and with appropriate documentation his days Indonesia and his trip to Pakistan. All Senator Obama has to do is to produce the orginal documents that we finally know are in Hawaii, if the fuzzy AP story is correct, and documentation that he is not or was not ever an Indonesian citizen and all the questions will go away. Why does he continue to withhold this information? by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 1:29:43 PM (0+)
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Couple things Mad Jayhawk
First this accusation is a well-cycled Republican talking point by now. Factcheck.org has proven that Obama is rightfully a U.S. Citizen and even made photocopies of Barack Obama's birth certificate. You can see all of that here. Second you are showing a lawsuit that has no signatures and has not been notarized and has not been submitted to any legal court of law. At least post something that any 16 year old couldn't post. I can post a lawsuit template stating anything as well. Maybe I should post one about McCain's killing someone in his automobile outside of a naval base in the 60's. by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:51:40 PM (0+)
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Reply: Sorry
You think Fact Check should be authorized to prove a candidate is eligible to run for President?. This is not enough, since obviously the questions are still out there and a lawsuit was filed. Just submit the birth certificate to congress and let them validate it, and poof, this issue goes away. In this day and age, digital forgeries are a piece of cake. Photos on some web site by a group who may or may not be unduly influenced are not proof ( I do not mean to disrespect this group I am just saying I do not recognize their authority or capability to make these calls) . by pft (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 601 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:11:17 PM (0+)
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Reply: Lawsuits? Strange timing!
Anyone can file a lawsuit, even a bogus one that won't ever get to court because it is know to be bogus. This one is the Republican's last attempt to steal yet another election, "my friend". "You betcha!" Obama wouldn't be in the Senate if he wasn't a legally born American citizen. If this Attorney cared about Barack's citizenship why wasn't it filed years ago? Think about it. by Snoopy (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:00:39 AM (0+)
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Reply: Sorry
But why does not Obama just release the birth certificate?. He can not be worried about identity theft?. Why should there need be a lawsuit. An Illinois Senator is a far cry from President, and there is no requirement he be natural born. There should be a process where certification of eligibility is done before the primaries, preferably the judiciary, or perhaps the INS. There is a "Certification of Live birth" filed which has be posted on the Internet, but that can be filed without proof by the mother or a relative. There is no official "Certificate of Birth" which is a required filing by any doctor who delivers a child, clearly stating the place, time of birth and witnesses to that birth, as well as the name of the physician. What is being alleged, and I have no idea if true, is that he was born in Kenya, and his grandmother or grandfather then put notices in 2 newspapers (each one listing a different hopsital) of his birth (this requires no proof) and they filed a certificate of live birth (no proof required) on his behalf circumventing the need for Obama to do the paperwork to be a citizen when he returned to the US. A certificate of live birth is not the Birth Certificate being requested. by pft (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 601 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:36:16 AM (0+)
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More garbage right wing echo chamber crap from madjayhawk
You're' getting predictable. This stuff is astroturf. Keep it up and you'll find your access has gone poof. by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:19:21 PM (0+)
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Reply: Hey
Are you threatening me? I am just trying to discuss in a rational way what I see as a serious problem. If that is a problem, then ban me. It makes little difference to me. I have been banned before. Democrats love to talk about bipartisanship and inclusiveness but when it gets right down to it they prefer that everyone just sit there quietly, drink the cool aid, and write vapid BS about Sarah Palin's clothes. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:17:28 AM (0+)
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Study the Birth Certificate Laws first.
Okay this argument has been bantered back and forth. Everyone is trying to force Barack Obama to present his "real" birth certificate. Lets look at the laws concerning birth certificates in Hawaii. Here is what the Hawaiian Department of Vital Statistics says about access to that pesky little document: Certified copies of these records may be issued to authorized individuals and used for such diverse purposes as school entry, passports, Social Security participation, driver’s licenses, employment, sports participation, survivor’s benefits, proof of property rights, and other needs." Who may apply for those records? Do any of these gentleman meet the preceding conditions? No they do not. Lets add into this pesky little argument, adoption. Adoption throws a major kink into all of it. In fact, most of these cases will be thrown out because of jurisdictional issues. You have to be in Hawaii. Even then these gentlemen do not qualify for access to that document on other standards quoted by the Hawaii Vital Statistics Department. According to Bastard Nation, the leading adoptee rights organization in the country: Pre-1991, if there is a waiver of confidentiality on file adoptees may obtain their records. If there is no waiver, the adoptee may request an intermediary to obtain a waiver from the birthparent. The intermediary has 120 days to complete a search. If the birthparent is not found, records are released to the adoptee. Post-1991 adoptees, if no disclosure veto is on file, the records are released at age 18. Same provisions for birthparents seeking identifying information and records about the adoptee. Birthparents may also obtain original birth certificates of their children." Do these men have a leg to stand with these laws? They are not the birth father, the mother (as she is deceased), his adoptive father, Barack himself, and the rest of Barack's family. They will not get access. The courts will not compel him to give them his birth certificate. Only Barack and his parents will have access. Another crazy loophole in all of this is that states are no longer issuing "long form" birth certificates. I know that my own birth state doesn't do it. They especially do not do it for adoptees. Trust me, I still don't know what hospital I was born as that is considered identifying information. If I did not have my non identifying information, I would not know my weight or my length. I too do not have a doctor's signature on mine. Does this mean that I am not an American citizen? Well according to this article, I guess I am not because I can't prove that I was born in Indiana. If you won't accept his, you won't accept mine. You are beating a dead horse here. Let it GO. by Amyadoptee (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments) on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:32:37 PM (0+)
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Reply: Interesting
Interesting post. The Washington lawsuit does not ask Hawaii to provide the plainiff with a birth certificate. It asks that the Washington Secretary of State verfiy that Obama is a natural born citizen or that they get proof from the FEC that he is. If Obama himself had a vault birth certificate that would clear things up in a hurry. Hawaii, as you pointed out, will not give Obama's birth certificate to just anyone who asks for one without his permission. A lawsuit in Hawaii was recently thrown out because they wanted access to the birth certificate and the court ruled that they did not have sufficent reasons. As an interesting sidelight to this the Governor of Hawaii supposedly (there is just one somewhat doubt source for this story) sealed Obama's birth certificate shortly after his trip to see his ailing grandmother in order to prevent access to it. It remains to be seen if this is true or not. If so that is very strange. Also it has been written, again by doubtful sources, that all of Obama's records in Kenya have been sealed as well. I did some research on who verifies whether someone is qualified to be president. I really couldn't find a definitive answer to that question. I would assume the FEC would but it seems that they are only responsible for enforcing campaign finance laws. It seems like the procedure would be similar to applying for a passport or getting a driver's license, but who actually is responsible for determine whether anyone is a natural born citizen or is over 35? There have been quite a few candidates besides McCain and Obama who have had citizenship issues in the past. Even Al Gore who was born in the the District of Columbia. It seems ridiculous to think that DC is not part of the US but there was a legal inquiry into it. I might note that Fact Check did a study on the birth certificate issue and came to conclusion that the certificate Obama showed them was real. There are some doubts about their unbiasness since they are financed by the Anneberg Foundation with whom Obama has ties. They also came up with a newspaper birth announcement. Some people have examined that announcement and compared the address with where Obama said he has lived and where the house is and found that there seems to be a disconnect. And the story about his mother flying from Kenya to Hawaii and stopping off in Seattle seems impossible given the types of airplanes used at that time and the flying times involved. Add that to the fact that his grandmother said that Obama was born in Kenya and the fact that he traveled to Pakistan probably using an Indonesian passport at a time when Pakistan was supposedly in turmoil and only allowed muslims to enter the country and you have a lot of mysteries. Obama is obviously hiding some things. His past is a mystery. It would be nice to see those mysteries cleared up before he takes office. I don't think this all should be swept under the rug just because he seems like a nice guy. Constitutional requirements are serious business and he either meets them or he doesn't. Why doesn't he just produce the birth certificate and other papers? It would be also nice if our unbiased media would spend some time and effort looking into this story. That, of course, will never happen. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:10:17 AM (0+)
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THE REAL ISSUE IS:
Why is this coming out now? "Senators" have to be American Citizens. Barack is a "Senator". Therefore, Barack must be a citizen. So I ask you again, why is this coming out now? Is this is another ploy for the Republicans to steal yet another election "my friend"? by Snoopy (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 1:49:50 AM (0+)
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Reply: Question
Why doesn't Obama just produce his vault birth certificate and/or naturalization papers? That is all that is asked. That is not impossible to do fairly easily with all the money and staff that he has. He is refusing to do so. By the way, the constitution just requires that a Senator be a citizen for 9 years. It does not require that he/she is a natural born citizen. A naturalized citizen could be a Senator. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:33:04 AM (0+)
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Reply: Answer again: Why just coming out now?
While Barack and Hillary were duking it out to see which one would be the Elected Nominee, don't you thing that the Clinton's would have investigated this? They or some Republican would have jumped all over this issue and didn't. Why? One: Because there is no real issue here with this false flag. Two: Because the Republicans thought for sure that Hillary would win. The time to discredit a politician about his eligibilty to even run for presidency didn't take place. But since Obama has won the position we see all kinds of fear mongering tactics written about him, spoken about him, emailed about him, pamphlets about him, and a constant barage of TV ads. (All lies or inuendos put out by the GOP on a daily basis.) And after none of these: unsupported allegations, proven false allegations, fearmongering tactics, and character assinations of Obama have led the Republcans closer to the Presidency, now the "coup degras" is this last effort that you and others want to pass around. No, "my friend", this kind of trash to steal yet another election. NOT THIS TIME, "my friend"! It's too late in the game and we all are smart enough to know what that means! "You Betcha!" We've been there and done that before! Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame me! by Snoopy (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:38:46 PM (0+)
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Old Tactics
Obama had to provide proof of birth/citizenship to obtain a passport. Are you really naive enough to think that if he WERE NOT a U.S. citizen that some low-level employee at the State Department seeking 15 minutes of fame wouldn't have leaked anything negative by now? What is posted on Obama's website is what Hawaii calls the "short form" birth certificate. The long form is done by the hospital. There are far more legal questions surrounding the eligiblity of McCain as written in a legal analysis in Michigan. McCain was born in 1936 in Panama on a military base. A law was passed in 1937 directing that people born on U.S. military bases were U.S. citizens. HOWEVER, there is nothing in the law that says it has retroactive application. There are just so many concocoted parts of this whole thing that it is ludicrous, especially since the Rethuglicans wanted to amend the natural born citizen provision of the Constitution so Arnold could run. by catpurrson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:51:20 AM (0+)
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Reply: Good points
Does Obama have a passport? I am pretty sure he has or had an Indonesian one. I would have to check out whether he has been out of the country before becoming a US Senator. Only recently did you have to have a passport to travel to Mexico or Canada. I personally think that the requirements for getting a passport are the 'gold standard' when it comes to providing appropriate ID. I am not sure that they would even take what Obama says is his birth certificate. I used a detailed (doctor, hospital, etc) short form that was raised embossed to get my passport. The one on his website is not his orginal birth certificate. This is another thing, like driver's licenses, that should be produced according to some national standard. Since the one he produced is easily forged it would be nice if Obama produced the vaulted long form of his birth certificate so we could put this question to bed. Don't you agree? Relying on the fact that no one in State Department has broken the law is not a real good way to certify whether a person is eligible to be president, commander in chief and leader of the free world. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:25:04 PM (0+)
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Citizenship?
So what is the status of a person born in a foreign country to an American born in any state, like say Kansas? I have grandchildren born in the Philippines, who now live in the U.S. Am I just now finding out that none could run for President? by Pat Herrick (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 169 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:30:18 PM (0+)
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Reply: Two countries with two sets of laws
I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV so take what I say with a grain of salt. My nephew is facing a similar problem. I told him that he should consult with, at the minimum, an attorney in the country where the baby was born - in Germany where they are living (his wife is German) - and with the US State Department and follow the laws of Germany and the US precisely to prevent problems from occuring for the little dude down the road. Letting things slide is not a good option. The US has its laws regulating who is or is not a citizen and I am sure the Phillipines has theirs. They may contradict one another. That is one of the problems with Obama's mom moving around the world and marrying individuals from different countries. If she did not make a concerted effort to get all the paperwork done properly at the time here and in those countries where she lived she could have created a huge legal mess for her son. She seemed to be very sloppy with how she did things legally. There is a question as whether she even divorced Obama's father. That is, of course, not Obama's problem or anyone's business. If she was sloppy about getting that major thing done then citizenship paperwork for a young son was probably not a priority for her at the time. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 1:49:27 PM (0+)
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Reply: Philippine born Americans
Their father my son, immediately went to the U.S. Embassy to obtain passports~~~blue passports which they each carry, and provided for voter registration. They've always considered themselves American from birth, and not as 'naturalized.' by Pat Herrick (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 169 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:18:40 PM (0+)
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Reply: Smart
Your son is smart. Those things are best not left to chance. It would be nice to know what Obama's mother did or did not do when Obama returned to the US from Indonesia. His school records in Indonesia show that he was an Indonesian citizen and a muslim because to enroll in school in Indonesia at that time you had to be both and Indonesian law had no provision for dual citizenship at the time. I have no idea if that is actually true or not but it would be great if Obama himself provided his actual school records along with an explanation so it could be verified. If he does not provide any information all we have is speculation. These questions will not go away even if he is elected. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 7:03:35 PM (0+)
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Citizenship
We all should realize by now that it is futile to try to reason with Insane Jayhawk. This person is the typical Republican hack. He wouldn't believe he was born if he didn't carry his birth cirtificate around with him. He is a very sad example of a bad loser. by Fish Farmer (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:44:57 PM (0+)
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Reply: Bad form
When participating in a discussion it is extremely bad form to use ad homenium attacks on the other person. Ad homenium arguments or attacks accomplish little and reflect poorly on you. I laugh at people who do such things. If you just want me to feel bad for some reason just show definitively that what I have presented is flawed or flat out wrong using some good evidence and I will feel bad. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:31:50 PM (0+)
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Citizenship
So does that mean it has already been confirmed that being born in Panama, Senator McCain meets the standard? Or is it just that Senator Obama has to meet that standard? by Archie (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1750 comments [111 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 8:40:44 PM (0+)
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No wonder you vote Republican
You assume that the Democratic Party went along with a fraud, jeopardizing the election. You assume that the officials from the state of Hawaii are lying and the Associated Press is distributing their lies. You might be justified in making such an even more assumptions, provided that you have a good reason to do so. I see that you have only two reasons and each are worse than the other: 1. You rely on the Republican smear campaign. The Republican campaign of smear and distortion that produced the lying Swift Boat veterans, the invisible Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, Saddam's connection to his nemesis al-Qaida, ghosts of enriched uranium in Nigeria, Bush as a family-value pack, an unlicensed Republican plumber who makes 40 K but pretends of making a quarter million, and McCain as an economist as a maverick.... and more lies... 2. You rely on a supposed testimony of a 90 plus year-old women in Africa. No wonder you are voting for Republican. Something is missing: critical thinking! I hope we are just a few days away to save this country from the enemies of American people who peddle snake-oil patriotism to people. Peace, by Edip Yuksel (17 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 90 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:50:46 PM (0+)
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Reply: One Question
One question every responder here fails to answer: Why doesn't Obama produce his vault birth certificate? Not one person has attempted to honestly answer that question. Not one. A certification of birth, forged or not forged, is not a vault birth certificate. Anyone who is a Hawaiian citizen can get a certification of birth like Obama has for a infant born anywhere in the world. John Kerry never really answered the Swift Boat people either but he paid a price for his arrogance. He flat out promised that he would release all of his military records and that would prove that the Swift Boaters were wrong without a doubt. He never did release the records. Why not? You know why. It, unfortunately, looks like it will be the same with Obama. We will never see that vault birth certificate unless the Supreme Court makes him produce it. And he will more than likely dance around whether he is an Indonesian citizen as well. Just like you probably will never see his school records from Columbia and his records from the time he was a state legislator and his records from when he was a practicing attorney and the tape from the party he attended honoring Khalidi. Is he constitutionally qualified to be president? If he is, great, you can say there I told you so 50,000 times and Obama can go ahead and save the world and if he is not then let the legal battles begin. All I am doing is asking a simple, easily answered question. The sad thing is that ordinary Americans are learning that you do not question Barrack Obama. When we, as Americans can't question our leaders without living in fear of being endlessly investigated by our government officials or by the media knocking on our neighbor's doors or being physically attacked, we will no longer live in a free country called America. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:33:33 AM (0+)
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This has been debunked again, and again and again and...
and Obama has provided his birth certificate at least twice now. Here is the best source of facts that I have found regarding the Obama birth certificate conspiracy theory - http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/ by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:23:27 PM (0+)
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Reply: Thanks
That is a good website for checking out things even though it is the St Petersburg Times. The main thrust of their article was to check out Obama's middle name. They pretty much searched through everything and found that it was H------, not that it matters. That was a relief. I was afraid it really was Steve. None of the records they displayed on the SPT website referred to his birth certificate except the one they said they got from Obama's website, StoptheSmears. About his birth certificate they wrote: "Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received. And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? “When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it.” Still, she acknowledges: “I don’t know that it’s possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents.”" That is fine however what Obama put on his website is not a copy of his vault birth certificate. It, if it is real, is what is known as a short form or Certification of Birth. The long form, a birth certificate, is completed by the hospital and records more information about the birth. Some (two court certified forensic document examiners) have analyzed those short forms and say that they are both forgeries. There are lots of postings that go into detail about the alleged forgery and you can check them out for yourself. And from what the St Peterburg Times got back from the folks in Hawaii (the way I read it) is that it looks like the real thing but we can't be 100% certain. In addition the hospital does not have records of Obama's birth. And his sister says he was born in another hospital and not the one Obama says he was born in. His grandmother says that Obama was born in Kenya. All of his relatives in Kenya have been told not to give any more interviews and all of Obama's records (although he was supposedly not born there) have been sealed by the Kenyan government. Also note that in Hawaii birth certificates can be issued for minor children born outside the state if one of the parents is a resident of Hawaii. HRS 338-17.8 Another question is why would the Daily Kos and the StoptheSmears websites put a forged birth certificate up on their websites when they could have gotten a real copy from Obama? One would have to suppose that the real Hawaiian hospital issued birth certificate either does not exist or it contains information that would be highly unfavorable to someone who claims to be a natural born citizen. When I first started reading about this stuff I had my doubts and thought it was the product of the minds of right wing nut jobs just like you do, but after a while I said that it is possible that Obama is not a citizen. Now, I am to the point where seeing the vault birth certificate is important to me. The bottom line is that this whole matter could be cleared up in a New York minute if Obama would produce his vault birth certificate. Why he doesn't is the real mystery. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 at 3:27:55 AM (0+)
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Reply: You're welcome, thanks for acknowledging being wrong...
... you ought to delete this whole article. by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:26:41 AM (0+)
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