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December 4, 2008 at 19:26:05
by Mad Jayhawk Page 1 of 1 page(s) |
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Obama has continued to refuse to present a valid vault birth certificate. A vault birth certificate contains all the information about the birth including the hospital, the attending physician, birth weight, time of birth, parents' names, etc. The 'birth certificate' (a Certificate of Live Birth) that has been presented as Obama's birth certificate is not a vault birth certificate so the controversy has not gone away. The statements of officials in Hawaii did not really clear up the matter because Hawaii can issue Certificates of Live Birth for foreign born children. Even after the official's statement was criticized they have not come back and clarified what they originally stated to the media so as to leave any doubt that what they looked at was an original vault birth certificate issued by a Hawaiian hospital and the attending physician.
Why Obama has not just presented a vault birth certificate is a mystery. The controversy could be cleared up in about 15 seconds and all the folks interested in this could find something better to do with their time. Instead the issue is dragging out in court with multiple lawsuits. The Supreme Court will rule tomorrow whether they will accept one or more of the cases surrounding this issue. It is unlikely, according to knowledgeable people, that the case will be accepted.
The vault birth certificate will eventually have to be produced whether the Supreme Court takes the case or not as discussed in the article below so why doesn't Obama just produce it?
It is almost totally inconceivable that someone would run for and get elected president and not be a natural born citizen of the United States, however until the vault birth certificate is produced we can say that it is not impossible. Obama needs to produce his vault birth certificate so this can be put behind us. Producing a few other documents he has not put out there would be nice too.
This is the article from the Philadelphia Bulletin:
"Inside Today's Philadelphia Bulletin
Obama Fomenting A Constitutional Crisis: Constitutional Lawyer Discusses Ramifications Of Controversy
By John P. Connolly, The Bulletin
Controversy continues to surround President-elect Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president, and a case involving his birth certificate waits for its day before the U.S. Supreme Court. A constitutional lawyer said were it to be discovered that Mr. Obama is not a natural-born U.S. citizen, it would have grave consequences for the nation.
According to the Constitution, a president must be a natural born citizen of the U.S. Mr. Obama's critics have failed to force him legally to produce his original birth certificate, and Mr. Obama has resisted any attempt to make him do so. Currently, only Hawaii Department of Health officials have access to Mr. Obama's original records.
Some of Mr. Obama's critics have said he was born in Kenya and have claimed he is a citizen of Kenya, Indonesia, or even a British subject.
Edwin Vieira, a constitutional lawyer who has practiced for 30 years and holds four degrees from Harvard, said if it were to be discovered Mr. Obama were not eligible for the presidency, it would cause many problems. They would be compounded if his ineligibility were discovered after he had been in office for a period of time.
"Let's assume he wasn't born in the U.S.," Mr. Vieira told The Bulletin. "What's the consequence? He will not be eligible. That means he cannot be elected validly. The people and the Electoral College cannot overcome this and the House of Representatives can't make him president. So what's the next step? He takes the oath of office, and assuming he's aware he's not a citizen, then it's a perjured oath."
Any appointments made by an ineligible president would have to be recalled, and their decisions would be invalidated.
"He may have nominated people to different positions; he may have nominated people to the judicial branch, who may have been confirmed, they may have gone out on xecutive duty and done various things," said Mr. Vieira. "The people that he's put into the judicial branch may have decided cases, and all of that needs to be unzipped."
Mr. Vieira said Obama supporters should be the ones concerned about the case, because Mr. Obama's platform would be discredited it he were forced to step down from the presidency later due to his ineligibility, were it to be discovered.
"Let's say we go a year into this process, and it all turns out to be a flim-flam," said Mr. Vieira. "What's the nation's reaction to that? What's going to be the reaction in the next U.S. election? God knows. It has almost revolutionary consequences, if you think about it."
Mr. Vieira said Mr. Obama's continued silence and avoidance in the release of his birth certificate is an ethical issue because of the dire consequences that could be caused by a possible constitutional crisis.
"If he were my client and this question came up in civil litigation, if there was some reason that his birth status was relevant and the other side wanted him to produce the thing and he said 'no,' I would tell him, 'you have about 15 minutes to produce it or sign the papers necessary to produce the document, or I'm resigning as your attorney," said Mr. Vieira. "I don't think any ethical attorney would go ahead on the basis that his client could produce an objective document in civil litigation [and refused to do so]."
Further, Mr. Vieira cited a fraud ruling in a 1977 case called U.S. v. Prudden, which he feels applies in this case.
"Silence can only be equated with fraud when there is a legal and moral duty to speak or when an inquiry left unanswered would be intentionally misleading," the ruling reads. "We cannot condone this shocking conduct ... If that is the case we hope our message is clear. This sort of deception will not be tolerated and if this is routine it should be corrected immediately."
Mr. Vieira said such an ethical question of representing a client who refused to produce such a basic document is important, even in a small civil case. The current question is concerning the man who potentially could have his finger next to the nuclear button.
"[The birth certificate], in theory, should be there," said Mr. Vieira. "What if it isn't? Who knows, aside from Mr. Obama? Does Russian intelligence know it isn't there? Does Chinese intelligence know it isn't there? Does the CIA know that it isn't there? Who is in a position to blackmail this fellow?"
Mr. Vieira explained all laws have to be submitted to the president. In the event that there is no valid president, then no laws passed by Congress in that administration would be legally null and void. Because of that, this case will probably not go away, even after Mr. Obama takes the oath of office.
"If you don't produce it, you think it's going to go away," he said. "There are all these cases challenging Mr. Obama, and some challenging secretaries of state, and they run into this doctrine called standing."
Mr. Vieira explained although legal standing is difficult to get around in Federal courts, the document could be produced in any criminal cases stemming from legislation passed in the Obama administration.
"Let's assume that an Obama administration passes some of these controversial pieces of legislation he has been promising to go for, like the FOCA (Freedom of Choice) Act," said Mr. Vieira. "I would assume that some of those surely will have some severe civil or criminal penalties attached to them for violation. You are now the criminal defendant under this statute, which was passed by an Obama Congress and signed by President Obama. Your defense is that is not a statute because Mr. Obama is not the president. You now have a right and I have never heard this challenged, to subpoena in a criminal case, anyone who has relevant evidence relating to your defenses. And you can subpoena them duces tecum, meaning 'you shall bring with you the documents.' "
Such a criminal defense would enable the defendant to subpoena any person to testify in court and any person to bring evidence in their possession to the court.
Further, records could be subpoenaed directly, in the case of a birth certificate. Once the record could be subpoenaed, the birth certificate could be examined by forensic experts, who would then be able to testify to the document's veracity as expert witnesses. Any movement by the judges to make a special exception to the president in a criminal case would hurt the legitimacy of that presidential administration.
"I can't believe I'm the only lawyer who would think of this," said Mr. Vieira. "I think any criminal lawyer defending against one of these politically charged statutes is going to come up with this. That means it will never go away until that document is laid down on the table and people say, 'yes, there it is.' And therefore they're caught. If people keep challenging this and the judges out of fear keep saying 'no, go to jail, go to jail, go to jail' then that's the end of the Obama administration's legitimacy. On the other hand if they open the file and it's not there, then that's really the end of the administration's legitimacy."
Several court cases in the birth certificate controversy are waiting admission to the Supreme Court.
A gathering of judges will meet on Dec. 5 to decide whether or not to hear a case from New Jersey, and a decision is still pending on a case from a lawyer in Pennsylvania. Should four of the judges vote to hear the case in the Dec. 5 meeting, then it will be scheduled for hearings. Court cases from Connecticut and New York have also applied for hearings at the U.S. Supreme Court.
John P. Connolly can be reached at jconnolly@thebulletin.us"
The views expressed in this article are the sole responsibility of the author
and do not necessarily reflect those of this website or its editors.
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| 14 comments |
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not serious
The State of Hawaii has produced Obama's birth certificate. This is a non-issue, except for the kind of fools that vote GOP. Get over it. Move on. Find some other way to deny common sense, reality and human viability. The last million years have proved that the stupid die first. Do I need to explain this? by martinweiss (41 articles, 6 quicklinks, 13 diaries, 503 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:04:44 PM  (0+)
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Reply: A COLB is NOT a birth certificate
A certification of live birth is not the same as a birth certificate. It only verifies that a child was born and presented to the authorities sometime after that, it is not certifying where, when and in what hospital the birth occurred, and is not signed by someone who witnessed the birth like a birth certificate is....the birth could occur overseas or in another state and a COLB will stil be issued by the state of residence of the mother or guradian. by Brad Griffeth (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 138 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:21:59 PM (0+)
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Reply: What is it then?
I am looking at my daughter's Certified Abstract of Birth from the County of Los Angeles Registrar/Recorder's office. The information it contains: Her name Date of Birth County of Birth Surname of Mother Father's name Date filed Date issued Sex Local Registration number No doctor (it was a midwife anyway) No hospital (she wasn't born in a hospital) The signature is that of the Registrar/Recorder official. This is the only document available to verify her birth. It is the only document required to attend school, get a driver's license, passport or marriage certificate. Before she was old enough for a license, we used it to prove ID when traveling over the border to Canada. Maybe your state does it differently? My stepson was born here in WA and hubby adopted him a few years later. His new, adoptive BC has, under Mother's Name: None Named! by camanokat (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 81 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:27:31 PM (0+)
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Reply: Serious
The State of Hawaii has not produced a birth certificate. They have shown us a photcopy of a "Certificate of Live Birth"--this is NOT a birth certificate! A COLB can be issued to the parents in the case of a foreign birth. You had better bone up on the facts before you announce that all is well like a drunk town crier. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1685 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:30:14 PM (0+)
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Reply: William
Please show me one state or federal agency that SPECIFICALLY DOES NOT ACCEPT a COLB as proof of Citizenship. It is a straw man argument and you know it. None of us are required to provide a vault valid birth certificate for anything. Obama certainly isn't going to let a bunch of wing-nuts dictate to him when to jump and how high. He is smarter than that and will bleed each and everyone of these idiots dry in legal fees. There isn't one case or one court that has required Obama to produce the vault valid birth certificate. So why should he when no other citizen in this country is required to? That is what is driving all of you crazy. You can't dictate to him to jump because he is smarter than you. by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:06:50 PM (0+)
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$10.00
Why does Obama spend thousands of dollars fighting the lawsuits when he could spend $10 for a certified copy of his vault birth certificate? It does not make any sense. If Obama sent me a power of attorney and the round trip air fare I would personally go to Hawaii and get it for him. Tomorrow. by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:40:49 PM (0+)
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Reply: See my post above
The Certified Abstract of bitrth is ALL I have for my youngest child. If I order a "vault" certificate, I get a certified copy of exactly what I now have. My own BC is issued from the town hall in the city where I was born. It has no hospital or doctor's name on it. It is not called a COLB, it's a birth certificate. Obama has produced what he has and the state of Hawaii has confirmed it. Just because the lawyer quoted in the article passed the bar doesn't mean he has any common sense. by camanokat (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 81 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:35:19 PM (0+)
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Really?
This is funny stuff. I think some people are so used to being "angry outsiders", they will always disagree with everything. by politivegan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 13 comments) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:12:00 PM (0+)
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Reply: Yes Really
...And some people just go along to get along, never comprehending the issues at hand--therefore handing over the nation to crooks. by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1685 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:33:09 PM (0+)
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Reply: oh
blah blah conspiracy blah by politivegan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 13 comments) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:09:13 PM (0+)
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SO MUCH CRAP
This whole controversy is a study in foolishness. It doesn't matter in which state or county Obama was born; he was born to an American mother and that alone makes him a "natural-born citizen." These right-wingers didn't raise the issue about John McCain, who was born in Panama, nor did they raise the issue in the '60s when Mitt Romney's father, George, ran for the GOP presidential nomination after being born in Mexico. They were both born of American parents, thus were "natural-born" Americans. Requiring one to be born on United States soil does not signify "natural born." That would be "native born" and the Constitution doesn't require one to be "native born." Any "constitutional lawyer" who doesn't understand this should be sent back to school and has his lawyer license suspended until he learns things correctly. by tabonsell (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 318 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:25:47 PM (0+)
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COLBs vs. other birth certificates
Four of my five children have only COLBs. Those are what the towns in which they were born issued, even for the only kid who was born in a hospital. Is it impossible that Obama's town of birth provided the same thing? by Jill Herendeen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 213 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:38:16 PM (0+)
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Reply: COLBs
For my children I have two documents from the State of Missouri: A Missouri Birth Certification shows -the child's name, -my wife's and my name, our ages, our states of birth, -the date of birth of the child, the county of birth, -the date the Certificate of Live Birth was filed, and the state file number. It has a raised seal and the words "This is a true certification of name and birth facts recorded in this office. At the bottom is the date the Birth Certification was issued. This is similar to what Obama has produced. The Missouri Certificate of Live Birth for each of our children has - date filed - state file number -Primary Registration District No - Registrar's No - child's name - date of birth - hour of birth -sex - type of birth (single, twin, triplet, etc) -county of birth - town or city - whether in the city limits - Hospital's name or the location if not born in a hospital - Mothers name, age, state of birth, state of residence, county of residence, street number, - Father's name, age, state of birth - who presented the information of the Certificate of Live Birth and their relation to the child - A Certification of birth by the doctor: doctor's signature, date signed, attandant, license number, address - the registrar's signature and name and date the Certification was received. This document is a certified copy of the original document with a raised seal. There is a warning not to accept the document if the seal impression cannot be felt. There is a date it was produced and the State Registrar's signature. My wife, who was also born in Missouri, has the same documents. I was born in Maryland and only have a Certificate of Birth that has all the same detailed information that the Missouri COLB has on it including the doctor's name and hospital or place of birth (I was born at home). In addition it has race on it. It was issued by the town clerk in the city where I was born. I imagine that Hawaii has a document similar to Missouri's Certificate of Live Birth available for Obama. This is what people would like to see. He just needs to send in the $10 and get a certified copy of it and show it to us. The document he is presenting is the short form of the birth certificate. Why he refuses to do this and fights having to do it in court is a complete mystery? by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:42:01 PM (0+)
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Reply: If you didn't like Obama so much, why didn't you vote for me
If you didn't like Obama so much, why didn't you vote for me? What kind of JAYHAWK ARE YOU? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I WAS RUNNING FOR PREZ. LEAVE THE OTHER KANSAN out of your murmurring and think positive--we could have had a wimpy Republican cow-towing to Bush for 8 years to get elected. click here the way, when I go on line to get a copy of a birth certificate from my homestate, like for getting a passport or social security, IT IS NOT A RAISED SEAL THAT COMES OUT ON MY COMPUTER. by ALONE (196 articles, 1 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 557 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 at 12:36:51 AM (0+)
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