We have crossed the line into journalistic never never land. Our individual right to privacy, the one right many self proclaimed progressives articulate as the fulcrum of our commonality, has been tossed to the dogs and thrown under the bus. It has in this instance, now become less important what another human being has chosen in their own personal and private life than what we think about that choice.
My friends, we had better be careful. Very careful.
I never thought on this open 'progressive' site, I would ever see the day when plausibility would be offered as proof, conjecture as confirmation, implication as fact or presupposition as evidence. We have turned our fear of a heaven forbid McCain presidency into a runaway train rush to attack and destroy the very tenet we claim he and his bosses want to take from us.
Because Sarah Palin is an elected public figure, she accepts the responsibilities of seeking and receiving the public trust. By her acceptance of this trust, she is accountable. If she took a bribe, fired someone for political reasons, abused her position in disrespect to the honor of that trust, sold her influence or broke a written law, I would understand the public sentiment of betraying that trust and the resulting call for a concerted response with all vigor. I would share in the call to hold her accountable and to answer.
But this is not about that. This is private. A fellow U.S. citizen's personal family issue. We can have and will have opinions about her and whatever her and her family choices were and are, and we are free to respond with our own personal thoughts and opinions accordingly. But we have no right, either in the spirit of or on the books, to step inside her and her family's right to keep private that which is private, lest we wish our own privacies be treated with the same callousness we are showing her.
Remember the old adage to becoming what we hate. We are being as impersonal as a patriot missile and Rovian in the truest sense of the word. Alberto Gonzales could not have been more abusive of her than we are being. As he boldly told Congress that we have no habeas corpus, we are telling Mrs. Palin and her family that they have no privacy. None. We are telling her that her privacy belongs tous. That we determine what her truth means.
This is her private truth, whatever it is, and it is our duty to protect that. If she were to come on TV and radio and say to us "It's none of your damn business," I would hope and pray we would applaud.
And remember where we all live. Please. Think about this. Every day, we rail at preemptive war. At the callous abuse of preemptive and illegal policing within the city limits of our own country. We applaud those who stand up to those who attempt to claim nothing is sacred anymore. Personal information that once was protected as personal and private is now taken from us under the guise of protecting us. From who? Ourselves? You know what we are doing? By our efforts here, we are but filling out our resumes to join the thought police. This is preemptive journalism of the worst kind.
Remember this, too. By our daily grinding here at OpEd and elsewhere on these last remaining places left to us for free and honest dialogue, we do our best with our sweat, passion, dedication, words and tireless effort to protect the very tenet of what we claim this country stands for. To protect the individual right of each one of us to choose, decide and determine what is best for them. As long as is does not infringe on another, this pursuit of happiness as determined by the pursuer is the grail we have long lauded as our beacon. Do I have to link the 9,000+ articles on this site to prove my point? Whatever Mrs. Palin and her family's personal and private truth is, it is their business. Period.
I expect to be ridiculed, attacked and chastised for this post. I expect some of you will make the argument that Mrs. Palin's daughter being 17 is proof that Mr. and Mrs. Palin have done irreparable harm within their own family. That Mrs. Palin has a character flaw that precludes her from being the potential heartbeat away from the presidency. Ok fair enough. Then don't vote for her. Send her your message. Send her back to Alaska. But, I'll tell you what. If the people of this country don't respect each others privacy, what message does that send?
Not only will I not argue these points, neither will I debate them. I will not betray what I believe we are betraying.
Rail all you want. Have me banned. Call me a wuss. Make your arguments. Spin the bottle.
I am sorry, but we are dangerously close to becoming exactly what we despise.
peace
57 years on this jumpin' green sphere. Musician. Own and operate a music store to help kids find a possible life long friend. I believe in the soul and the search. Happily married w/ 2 boys. Published songwriter. play bass, piano and gut string guitar. there are no solutions..only alternatives. Ask questions. Listen. Be fair and don't expect. Baseball is a mirror. Don't ask....unless you have time and a sense of humor. Peace is never easy, but worth it. Always.
Mikel, you didn't say anything that would justify someone attacking you or ridiculing you. It's perfectly valid for you to say what you believe. It's okay to disagree. And it's okay to discuss it with respectful arguments.
For instance, I disagree that this is "her private truth." It's not.
Most of the evidence points toward the conclusion that it is her very public lie.
Nobody is condemning her or any member of her family for her teenage daughter becoming pregnant. Not one of us. We should point out the hypocrisy of Palin's positions on "family values" and "abstinence only," because that's what she has made her main platform. But we're not passing judgment on the daughter.
There is a growing pile of evidence that indicates that Palin faked her own pregnancy and birthing of a child actually borne by her daughter. And she did it to avoid political embarassment.
This is not yet established fact, and my mind is open. She can put this all to rest very easily if it is not true.
by
JC Garrett (40 articles, 65 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 604 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 6:08:06 AM
It's way too late for you to somehow suggest that you (and many, many others here) are anywhere near open-minded about this.
I've followed this discussion since yesterday, and you've posted many times saying that it isn't about the teenage daughter, but that it's about THE LIE (my capitalization, of course, but it's the point I want to make).
You have consistently, in at least a half-dozen posts, referred to Sarah Palin's LIE to further her political ambitions. You've concluded in several posts that the LIE was to avoid political embarrassment. You've gone so far as to suggest how Sarah Palin should have instead been supportive of her daughter rather than lying.
Only then do you qualify it with "If it is true...."
You've spent at least 20 times more pixels explicitly condemning Sarah Palin for lies than you have admitting that this is based on sheer speculation and rumor. In spite of your claim that there's a "pile of evidence", there isn't. Your bias has allowed you to come to that conclusion.
You've asked for Palin to produce her medical records, not to see if she's sufficiently physically fit for the office of the Presidency, but simply to see whether Trig Palin actually came from her uterus in order to confirm or dispel rumors propagated by her political adversaries.
Frankly, as I briefly pointed out in the single comment I've made on this subject, I find the fact that Trig suffers from Downs Syndrome sufficient reason to believe that Sarah Palin is far more likely to be the mother than her teenage daughter. Women Sarah Palin's age have about a 1 in 30 chance of having a DS baby; for a teenager it's more like 1 in 3000 or more.
That alone should be sufficient to exercise extreme caution in continuing to fan these rumors and making incredible conclusions about political ambition. I agree with Mikel that people are allowed to have their own opinions and thoughts as to the truth of them. You, on the other hand, have assumed them true, condemned Sarah Palin for lying as if they were, and only then admitted the possibility that it's all just speculation.
Of course, as you say, it has nothing to do with the teenage daughter and her current pregnancy. That fact wasn't even revealed until mid-morning yesterday when the tawdry, speculative "Who's Trig's Mother" thread was already in full swing and had already branded Sarah Palin as a liar.
I'm not saying this should not be discussed at all, but I would have liked to see a much higher tone set here at OEN about this private, family matter.
by
Robert Knowles (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 59 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 11:48:57 AM
In none of my comments have I said that this story is undoubtedly true. I have listed the REAL evidence, most of which is completely circumstantial, and I have said that it deserves in-depth investigation. Circumstantial evidence is still valid and relevant, and enough to get convictions in a court of law. There is most certainly a "pile" of it, and it should be answered. And this election in which we will choose who becomes the new "Decider" does not in any way have the same standard of evidence that must be met to convict someone of a crime. If the only qualification for the top two spots in our government is that they aren't convicted criminals, where the hell are we going?
The reason I have repeated that it is about the mother's lie is to make that fact plain. I am biased only toward the compelling nature of the evidence, and not against any fact.
What I am saying is that ALL of the evidence pointing toward Sarah Palin having faked her pregnancy far outweighs any to the contrary at this point.
I believe in being fair and intellectually honest. I have acted that way. All anyone has to do is read the article, Casting Stones While Standing Under a Boulder, which I wrote only 3 weeks ago (along with all the comments I made on other articles that were condemning McCain for breaking under torture) to see that.
I believe in fighting fair in elections, but I'm not for unilateral disarmament. That is suicide. For real, when you consider the stakes involved in this election.
You won't be able to find a comment that I have made on this topic that was not qualified. And everything I've written about it has been fair. But it would be absolutely irresponsible NOT to make enough noise that this gets the investigation and analysis that it deserves - that WE deserve. We will not throw another election away just because we're too polite to suggest that someone may be a liar.
by
JC Garrett (40 articles, 65 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 604 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 4:08:57 PM
you said: I disagree that this is "her private truth." It's not.
I disagree. I believe it is. We can ask. Let her answer.
I do hope the truth comes out. That is important. It is the method that caused me to write this. How we treat each other in my mind, has to be fair. And at least to me in this matter, some of the reporting has not been close.
When and if Mrs. Palin answers these questions (and we can take her non answers should she choose not to answer as we like), then we can each respond as we each choose to. Fair enough?
We can disagree and be ok. Just like you and I do.
1. Our right to privacy is such a delicate issue yes?
2. We all have it.
I think we agree both of those.
peace
by
mikel paul (11 articles, 1 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 458 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 2:30:33 PM
I, for one have had it....I will not roll over and play dead and turn the other cheek when the opposition Repugs are like the HUNs To do so is utter foolishness. OK, so you can sit back and watch, and pride yourself on your...what...restraint????? I intend to take this battle back to the Repugs with all guns blazing and bring it right into their living rooms and bedrooms. At least on this one issue.....the right to choose to have a child or not. I will no longer sit on the sidelines and allow these, Right to Life, Christo-Religionists who DARE to think they can dictate what goes on inside my daughters or MY UTERUS to think they will be allowed to dictate public policy.
In this battle for CHOICE control....THERE WILL BE NO PRIVACY ALLOWED!!!!! Privacy is what these people want to undermine. That being the case, I will adopt a 'take no prisoners' attitude, just as these Religionists have done. If you Repugs/Christ-Religionists want to make my uterus subject to Gov't control....then what goes on in ANY GIRL/WOMAN'S UTERUS should be a matter of public record and indeed, scrutiny. That includes your daughters....and probably your sons by extension.
It is HIGH Time we showed the public just what legislation that regulates abortion, birth control, etc. or (make no mistake about it because this is the ultimate aim of the Right-to Life Religionists) Birth Control Pills, IUD's or other Contraceptive methods. BRING IT ON. Perhaps,(and I'm sorry Bristol or any other minor girl who will find herself in this Hell)....Perhaps it is time to show Women and Men Just exactly what it is like to have your Uterus regulated by Gov't fiat, In Colorado, no doubt something that Sarah Palin and John McCain support, there is a proposition on the ballot to make a FERTILIZED EGG A PERSON (FEP) with all rights, under the law. Just imagine, for a moment, having to report your monthly cycle to the Gov't to prove you did not intend to ABORT a child JUST BY HAVING YOUR PERIOD. Since there is no ready test to determine if a FEP was present or not...IF you had sex prior to your period....YOU MAY BE GUILTY OF MURDER.
Think about it....I am going to take this idea of the "public nature" of a Woman's Uterus, under what the Right to Life proposes and run with it. These people who put forth such idiotic legislation are ZEALOTS. Do you think for one minute that they would respect your restraint on the issue????? They count on the fact that you are to 'above it all' to get down in these trenches and fight hand-to-hand combat.
Well, you do that....but I don't think these religious zealots can be stopped until this issue lands in their own homes. Unfortunately, that may mean bringing it to the faces of their own children. These folks may not be vulnerable anywhere else.
No, this is not how I would like to fight this, but I see now that ONLY seriously emotionally hurting these people who would otherwise hurt me and my daughters, may work. For it not to work, these people will have to decide and, yes, choose, to allow their own child to be hurt. There is no greater leverage that I can think of.
I can be comfortable with this approach because I have SEEN that these people will act to hurt me or my daughter, emotionally, and have already done so by calling me a murderer. But, that is just the tip of the iceberg in their playbook.
Fire with fire.
d be a reality and women everywhere need to know it.
THERE IS NO PRIVACY LEFT UNDER 'RIGHT TO LIFE' PROPOSALS.
by
Merrry Gregor (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 6:33:13 AM
I am in agreement with you on the points you raise re womens right to choose. In fact you may color me as livid where it regards as you put it Privacy is what these people want to undermine.
My point is my belief that derives from our concept of innocent until proven guilty. Although this issue is not inside a court of law and therefore not on the same level page, I find it frightening that what are still unanswered questions are being offered already in some journalistic circles as verdict.
If I wouldn't stand up in protection of your personal and private choices, as I would, could I expext you to stand up for mine? As nasty as the bully is, I dare say if I swallow his hate, what do I accomplish?
I am with you. I respectfully just disagree at this point on how to quench my frustrations. How do I wish to be treated?
I am not a wimp, and obviously like you, will not go away, quietly.
peace
by
mikel paul (11 articles, 1 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 458 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 11:08:43 AM
There is absolutely no ethical reason why private lives should be out of bounds as a matter of principle, in fact it's quite the opposite. Any feminist, anybody with basic knowledge of politics knows that the personal is (almost always) political.
In Palin's case, journalists have a moral obligation to investigate her family life, because she is running on family values; finding out if she practices what she preaches, if she lives up to the Christian family life she advocates as a political argument is a totally legitimate question-the media would betray their responsability to voters if they didn't look into it.
Family values include no sex before marriage, and abstinence until marriage as the only approach for teenagers. The revelation of her daughter's pregnancy invalidates Palin's credibility on both counts: Bristol Palin had sex before marriage, and sexual abstinence for teenagers does not work. In fact--to be confirmed--Sarah Palin might have been pregnant too when she eloped to get married with her highschool sweetheart.
By investigating Palin's family life, Democrats DO NOT lower themselves to Republican levels: Republicans lie, smear, propagate fallacies, whereas democrats just tell the truth--big difference.
Finally, it's very seldom that hiding the truth is more ethical than telling the truth; in that case, hiding the truth would be helping and abetting Republican's lies and hypocrisy. Which means, concretely, helping them to win. If the Dems are dumb enough to do that, they deserve to lose.
by
francine (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 370 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 8:19:54 AM
In all due respect, for too long liberals and progressives have willingly made themselves into sheep and then expressed surprise when they are attacked by ravenous wolves.
Screw the 'we are better than that' argument, it doesn't work because the enemy are ruthless fascist thugs who recognize no rules or boundaries.
This disgusting carnival of perversion that is the McCain decision to pander to the knuckle dragging base as well as to insult the intelligence of every still angry Hillary supporter by picking Sarah Palin, her phony values, her exploition of her (?) baby for political gain and her anti-choice ideology needs to be called out for what it is.
It as a damned McMockery, a total disgrace and a dangerous one at that.
You can preach about "becoming what we hate" right up to the point where you and those who argue the same because of a general lack of spine to for once stand up and fight back are loaded onto a cattle car and trucked off to the KBR camps.
Pour it on, the fascist Republican party is on the run and running out of dirty tricks - now is the time to expose its soft white underbelly and thrust in the spear. When you are dealing with slime you need to at times be willing to climb down into the sewer to vanquish it.
Just my two cents
EE
by
Ed Encho (8 articles, 18 quicklinks, 56 diaries, 394 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 8:37:37 AM
..are worth a million bucks, Ed, I second your opinion.
Treating bullies and thugs with kids gloves is not only stupid, it's being their accomplice, and therefore morally wrong. Dems's claims of taking the high road have de facto turned them into complacent enablers to the Republicans and that's how they bear a heavy burden of responsability in the neocon's wreckage of the country.
by
francine (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 370 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 9:16:47 AM
Exactly, the Democrats and the squabbling coalition of identity based groups that they have become since shanking organized labor in the back will be remembered by history for their quisling fecklessness in the face of the rise of American fascism.
The poster boy for the modern Democrats is none other than Casper Milquetoast aka Harry Reid while the Republinazis have The Terminator himself in their ranks.
Here's to a return to left wing radicalism because really when it comes right down to it a liberal is one who walks out of a room when an argument becomes a fight while a radical grabs a chair and dives into the fray.
Let's see some spirit now, especially since the neocon fascist punks are on the run.
EE
by
Ed Encho (8 articles, 18 quicklinks, 56 diaries, 394 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 9:54:06 AM
This is a wonderful piece and I absolutely agree with your consensus. Nothing that you could have written however, could possibly have presented the damaging evidence that was demonstrated in the mean spirited comments that you have received.
While the subject of my writing is economics (121 articles written for Op-Ed with trusted author status), the response to your article and the recent flood of unsubstantiated calloused attacks and innuendos of Jerry Springer quality and that are being passed off as "News" on Op-Ed, have caused me to make the decision today to totally disassociate myself with Op-Ed News.
My intention has always been to try and bring people together. It appears that Op-Ed has chosen the opposite path.
by
Mike Folkerth (120 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 566 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 10:57:41 AM
you said, My intention has always been to try and bring people together.
We are both big boys. You sent my son a copy of your book a while back. He's 14. He read it. From time to time I see him glancing through it. Twice now, he has pointed out something you have made him think about. I would say your above comment has proven you to be successful. And as his dad, I am mushy in my thanx for that.
Most commenters are passionate about what we say, feel and do here as are you and I. What looks like an attack many times is as you know nothing more than a disagreement camoflaged. I can handle it. I appreciate you having my back on this but your importance to all this that we do here, I would opinionate is larger than many yous and I's.
Neither of us will heal the world. We're like parts. Dependant on one another to sucessfully find a way to move forward. Once in awhile we get in a wreck, and have to walk away.
Personally speaking, I hope you reconsider you cutting ties here.
Agreement is wonderful. But ,as I point out in my opinion piece above, I believe this is a critical moment in time that we need to remember how important that we treat each other as we would wish to be treated.
I'm fine with standing for that.
by
mikel paul (11 articles, 1 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 458 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 12:20:20 PM
Comparing fellow OErs to Rove and Gonzales inappropriate
While I highly support the issues of privacy which are well stated in the article above I do believe that it is fair to examine and question the judgement and truthfulness of any candidate for public office. I do hesitate to compare the morbid curiosities (myself included here!) behind the revelations and digging into the private family matters of Sarah Palin to the actions of Gonzales and Rove, namely providing legal arguments contrary to the US Constitution and Nuremberg Charter and the possible assassination of Paul Wellstone, not to mention the indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds of thousands of human beings in an insane quest for world control and domination. They simply do not compare and in all seriousness to equate them is a disservice to the reader, the American public, humanity as a whole, and is especially offensive to the memories of the fallen innocent dead.
by
Cassie (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 15 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 12:17:00 PM
I apologize that in my description of innuendo on Mrs. Palin and her family, I have disrespected the memories of any of the fallen due to the implicit and illegal actions of Rove and Gonzales et al. I had no intention to add to the volume. Neither did I wish to demean anyones 'curiousities' about this. I wish however curiousities would be treated as curiosities.
Anyones truthfulness is always very important. Perhaps it is the most important thing we have. Our word. That is not my point. It is most fair always to ask. That is one of my points. And, if we truly do believe we have a right to privacy which we do, that means everyone, and our asking of these questions should come as questions, not as innuendo. After the response, if we then are not satisfied with it, we can choose how we each shall respond.
I thank you for telling me I was not sensitive to notice that my words were callous enough to suggest any OE writers are in their league. Not my intention at all. The comparison I made was to draw attention to a style of unfairness I noticed in some of the articles that IMHO unfairly presented suggestions and innuendo as answers to valid questions. The problem was, they were not the answers from the person who was being asked. I should have instead said a trait was borrowed from Mssr's Rove and Gonzales. I selected them for obvious reasons. Had I used my college professor and the musicians union presidents names, both also dastardly, no one would have gotten the point.
Again I am sorry. I appreciate your comment. I really do.
peace
by
mikel paul (11 articles, 1 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 458 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 1:25:16 PM
Yeah, what a hoot being compared to Rove and Gonzalez for taking a hard line stance against Republican fascism, it's the weepy types you the "butterflies and moonbeams and zebras....and fairy tales" tofu munching latte sipping fake leftists who have for so long relegated the Democratic party to an 'opposition' party that makes the Vichy look like the army of Alexander the Great.
Time to put some backbone back into the left and give no quarter to the same fascist bastards who have turned the United States of America into some Naziesque thing called "THE HOMELAND".
Nothing should be sacred, absolutely nothing in taking this country back from these thugs - pour it on folks!
EE
by
Ed Encho (8 articles, 18 quicklinks, 56 diaries, 394 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 2:17:34 PM
It seems odd to me, though, that your article, which specifically seems to warn against discord, and signs off with “peace”, has spawned some of the most discordant activity I’ve ever seen on this site. Curious.
It’s a good, thoughtful article, and I enjoyed reading it. I happen to have a different perspective, probably due to my deep mothering instincts to always protect all children, but I always appreciate hearing other well-thought out perspectives. In fact, this article inspired me to put my thoughts into the article on this topic that I posted earlier today.
Thank you Mikel!
by
Meryl Ann Butler (48 articles, 53 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 438 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 2:20:50 PM
I'm not the first to sign off as I do. And I am capable of sounding anything but in my less than wonderful moments, though I do continue to try. It just must be a sensitive subject. I know I am sensitive on this issue. It is in a delicate arena that we find ourselves.
I am not a mother, but am a dad and we, with a few key exceptions, are both in tune with the care of, for and about our little ones, who aren't so little anymore. I share your concern in how my child percieves what I do and their consequences as a result, on them. And also I, like many, have curiousities about this particular issue re Mrs. Palin. The delicacy that you and I have navigated through in our own personal family arenas gives us an understanding many do not appreciate. It is so personal, and I believe private. Qualified to be tested fairly, not bullied. Some of what I read did not seem fair to me. It felt mean to me.
I just come back to how we treat each other. Nothing is perfect. Fair is the best I've ever found. My fair is different than others is all. And that's ok.
What am I gonna do? Get all upset?
See what I mean?
thanx.....and peace
by
mikel paul (11 articles, 1 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 458 comments)
on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 at 5:53:19 PM
