....i really hope this helps bring those bully cops (I'm not calling them "pigs" because that would be a real insult to the actual animals) to justice!

Unfortunately, those cops will probably get a promotion for this.  After all, intimidation and bullying really is what their job is. 

Damn, this is what a police state looks like! 

by Hans Bennett (25 articles, 117 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 246 comments [35 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:12:23 AM

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And the thing to be aware of is that this is a Democratic city ruled by a Democratic mayor.  And its a pretty sure bet that like with everything else involved in this convention, the national Democrats and the Obama campaign had a lot to say in what has happened.

And this is only a slice of what happened in Denver.  You couldn't move around the city without confronting squads of riot police everywhere.  And any act of dissent was quickly attacked and crushed by those riot police.

After a week of watching the Democrats send the riot police out to attack any dissenters, I almost fell off my chair when Obama started talking in his speech about 'an obligation to treat each other with respect.'

Welcome to the Democrats idea of America! 

by Samson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 49 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:38:10 PM

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to show the Dems as unruly, out of control.

The fact is, they are doing it by using fascist, despicable gestapo tactics.

But we knew this was going to happen.

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:08:18 AM

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Rob Kall is right on.  Look up old videos of the 1968 DNC convention in Chicago which was totally out of control.  The Repugs want to repeat that so they can say that this is what will happen in this country if the Democrats win. 

by Shirley Bianchi (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 97 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:51:31 PM

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I don't need to look at old videos. I saw it all on television as it was happening. I didn't need to be there - I was in the thick of plenty of action in Milwaukee within a couple of years. I remember the Chicago 7. I remember the police riots in Chicago. I remember Dan Rather (I think it was) getting punched in the stomach by police while on his way into the convention - Walter Cronkite was furious and believe me, none of us had ever seen "granddad" Cronkite like that before!

A few things strike me. First of all, Denver has not been like Chicago, 1968. And when the day comes when it does get like that again, IF it does, then it will be much worse than it has been since the Civil War. Much worse than Chicago, '68.

However, what's alarming to me is that none of it was covered by CNN (that's all I can watch, over here in Ireland). That's what's odd and, to some extent, scary. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I don't see things like those who think the great slave state is about to begin with the New World Order, BUT I do think a lot of those symptoms could appear - and we just won't know about it, probably. The general public won't. Reality is what TV displays to us and these days it's not much, especially if you don't look carefully.

Another thing to remember - and I hate to rain on any parades, but... - is that all those demonstrators and all that activism, all that hope, all that desire to build a better world, well they all built the USA we've seen develop over the last 40 years.

I was very active with the so-called left during those anti-war days. And I saw up close when they shut down libraries. I remember the intolerance and pressure toward group think. I saw it up close when a university security guy stopped me in the middle of a near riot, took off his helmet to thank me for saving his neck a few days earlier and I realized that this guy was just trying to earn a living, raise his family; someone who took what he had probably thought was a sensible and safe job which wouldn't be overwhelmingly pressure filled.

I realized that the entire thing was just the flip side of the same old coin. It's not that I'm any the less radical minded politically than I was then, but I realized that the problem is our mode of thinking, not our thoughts, not our ideas, not our creations. Since then I've seen the same thing elsewhere. Among a group of dedicated environmental minded people who tried so valiently (and rather pointlessly, I thought) to block the destruction of a few feet of nature preserved forestry. I admired them for the sacrifice and hardiness that propelled them to camp in the woods for over a year, in very unpleasant climate conditions - but I still saw that they did not represent change; that they were really just more of the same. I've seen it in the giant festival like gatherings of "save the world" green type events.

I understand the momentum toward more religiousity that's been going on for some time, even though I disagree with it in the extreme. People desperately want to find new ways to think, but cannot figure out how - because "figuring out" will never take them there, it will just recycle the old. It's the problem of a two dimensional being who feels too confined by the limitations, but still cannot really conceive of a third dimension, beyond perhaps the accidental glimpse of it. And we Americans especially feel the drive to not only put ourselves at the centre of things, but also to settle on answers so we can act positively.

It's a helluva time. There's no going back. And going forward is going to be excruciatingly painful and traumatic. If we are the ones to give birth to the new, it will not be us who enjoy its benefits. We will be the ones who look back longingly to the good old days when getting clubbed by a baton was the only minor inconvenience most of us had to suffer. 

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 36 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:08:10 AM

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I am refering to your part in it. I am referring to you (or whoever took the video) capturing 7 to 8 seconds in a police officer forcefully thrusting a batton with a doublehanded grip in such a way as to constitute what looks to me to be unreasonable force.

I think you have collected evidence that could, and should, result in accountability and justice.

And that, is exactly what democracy should look like.

Surveilance technology is a given. It is going to be used by whoever has it because cameras and tape recorders produce, on the whole, more reliable evidence then eye or ear witness testimony alone.

Democracy is about MUTUAL accountability and about citizens knowing their power. Pelosi's book has a good name even if Pelosi is a poor role model.

Good work. Nice bit of citizenry. You should follow up and offer to assist the young woman who was assaulted with your evidence. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:29:34 AM

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with assault or whatever the use of unreasonable force amounts too, right there in Denver.

The Deputy Sherrif isn't going to be a prosecutor. Certainly he isn't going to prosecute himself. That doesn't mean that he has not committed a crime.

Often the reason the justice doesn't happen is because people don't want to go to the trouble of pressing the case. You have evidence in the form of the video. Why not find out who and what is the exact process, in Denver, for pressing charges? You have evidence.

If citizens don't get thugs arrested, if they don't accept the responsibility to take out the trash, then sooner or later others, out of exasperation, out of accumulation of insult, or perhaps out of righteous anger will shoot them dead. And the cop doesn't deserve to be shot dead for what he did. It wasn't that wrong. 

Violence is in us all. A police officer is entitled to use reasonable force but not more than that. A President likewise.

In America, citizens have become too domesticated and too timid. They don't take out enough trash. They don't prosecute. Violence is not absolutely wrong all the time as many silly people on this site preach. Disproportionate violence (force) is wrong.

If citizens allow disproportionate violence in their police, then they will get thugs for police. Similarly with Presidents. Eventually, the rest of the world (foreigners who are denied habeas corpus, tortured, invaded) are left with what looks like wildly disporportionate violence (assassinations, killings) that look disproportionate to the local eye but that actually isn't if you take all the things into account.

95 percent of human beings don't vote in US elections and don't have any US Congressional representation. That is too many people to treat as outlaws and to leave with only unlawful means of getting justice. But that is exactly what will be the situation if Bush isn't impeached and torture and aggressive invasion aren't repudiated as Presidential prerogatives. A President Obama (or McCain) isn't going to change that unless he is made to change it by US citizens. And Republicans aren't going to repudiate Bush or the idea that presidents should be allowed to torture or launch invasions unless they are made to turn their minds to the morality of the issue by their countrymen and women who they know and who are their family members and work colleagues and fellow citizens.

If an Iraqi was to assassinate George Bush because he was of the considered view that George Bush had caused his family to be killed with the illegal invasion of Iraq, then I could not accuse him of doing wrong at this point. That Iraqi really does have no legal avenues to get justice in the world as it is currently configured. And that the world is so configured is the fault of contemporary US citizens.

I am not an Iraqi. I am Australian. Were I an Iraqi and had my family been killed as collateral damage by your President I might be planning to kill Americans today rather than talking and remonstrating with them.

To be completely honest with you, once it no longer becomes possible to impeach Bush, I am not sure that killing Americans that collude to preserve the office of the President as an oasis of lawlessness would not be the right thing to do.

Needless to say, you or any reader, may pass my comments onto your law enforcement agents or the Australian ones any time that you wish. I would say what I have said here to a court of law without any problem at all.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 5:22:13 AM

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by downloading this video. Latest version Realplayer makes it easy.

If this video clip is removed, several copies will still be in existence.

Secure this evidence !

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 5:32:27 AM

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but as the video on youtube also has Linda's name associated with it, I'm assuming Linda has it, and I know the video is ALREADY available to a prosecutor with access to the internet.

Googling "Denver public prosecutor" or something similar got me close to this page which contains a phone number and office for the Prosecution and Code Enforcement Section in the Denver City Attorneys office. I am not absolutely sure that is the right office. But I'm sure they'd know who the right office is.

If Linda wants to perhaps she could ring them and ask "who do I speak if I have video evidence that a Denver police office may have used excessive force and if I want to find out what to do next to get some appropriate accountability"?

If they aren't the right office they would know who is. And Linda could point them at the youtube video that is already there.

And then, with very little effort, Linda would have good material for ANOTHER article generating itself in the background.  And that next article with a description of what happens as the prosecutors HAVE TO RESPOND somehow when given evidence could be headed "Or is THIS NOW democracy in action?!"

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 6:50:08 AM

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Here it is.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 6:52:15 AM

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it wasn't directed at you but at the general reading public. Sorry about that.

The following is for you though......

And Linda could point them at the youtube video that is already there.

YouTube yanks video clips hourly. The original can be lost, stolen, etc. This is why I say "secure the evidence". YouTube....now owned by Google. Google....well, there's more to it than just a name.

Just thinking outloud. Thousands of copies of this clip on thousands of harddisks worldwide are safer than one on a disk and one on a YouTube server. Most people don't know they can download the tube's clips. Most don't know how to. This is where Realplayer comes in. Keep the format as it is, most players can handle .flv

Denver Police already have a copy, btw.  ;

Sue Cobb, a spokeswoman for Mayor John Hickenlooper, said the city's Internal Affairs Bureau and the independent monitor are both looking into the incident.

"We take allegations of excessive force very seriously and will investigate fully," she said in a statement. "As soon as we know the facts, we'll provide more information."

Lt. Ron Saunier, a Denver police spokesman, said the 30-second clip was "kind of jumpy" on his computer and that it doesn't provide enough context.

"Just shown in that context, you don't get what the whole dynamics or the full situation is," he said.

Denver police Cmdr. John Burbach, head of internal affairs, requested a copy of the video, which was shot by Rocky Mountain News videographer George Kochaniec Jr.

"We'd like to have our own copy," Burbach said, declining to discuss the incident itself. "I don't know if there's anything that's before or after, that sort of thing."

Such a request is serious and requires a judicial order, said Rocky Editor and Publisher John Temple.

......

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 7:14:55 AM

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and re time expirations on youtube and saving with Realplayer etc.

The reason the police would want their own copy though, or one reason, would be that videos can now be editted by the public pretty easily too.

They'd need to essentially "quarantine" a copy that they could vouch for. The defendants attorney would challenge the veracity of not just what the documented evidence shows on its face, but also, if he (or she) didn't like what it showed, the chain of custody around the evidence that might have allowed for someone to have editted/altered the evidence.

In the end what this will come down to is how badly someone wants accountability for this. Every case of legal wrongdoing needs at least one human being willing to be its champion.  And some other humans willing to be witnesses, jurors, fair judges etc.  Democracy is a team 'sport' although corrupt judges, police, or Presidents can more than usually stuff up and undermine confidence in justice and the rule of law.

It will be interesting to see if either this, or the Cindy Sheehan getting (allegedly) bugged story gets any follow up. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 9:40:12 AM

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Have you forgotten the Rodney King case?  Or the hundred or so similar cases since then when police officers have been aquitted notwithstanding much more incriminating videotape.  Prosecutors work with the police on a daily basis and almost never bring charges against them.  Prosecutors know that police commit perjury daily to justify illegal searchs by claiming the defendant's consent, or that the baggie or part of the gun was in plain view.  If you spent a day in a criminal court listening to suppression hearings you would know that not a single marijuana smoker can successfully hide his stash without leaving just a corner of the baggie peaking out somewhere for the watchful eye of big brother to conveniently find.  The state, the judge, the defendant, and the defense lawyer, all know the cop is lying, but the charade goes on all day, every day, in every court in the land.

So cops aren't generally prosecuted unless there is no way out of it.  Then, rather than file a charge directly, the government will usually take the case to a grand jury hoping that it will return a no true bill, taking the political pressure off of the State Attorney's Office for not filing criminal charges against the cop.  Finally, if the cop has a true bill returned, the prosecutor will try the case in a fundamentally flawed manner, and the defense will almost invariably win.  

Why so much loyalty?  It isn't because the two groups work together daily, although that goes a long way.  Rather, prosecutors realize that any jail sentence for a cop is a death sentence.  Whatever the cop did can't be as bad as what a conviction will do to the cop.  Many defense attorneys justify their job the same way.  They feel that whatever their client did cannot be as bad as what the state is seeking to do to their client.  In the end, this is a very practical concern.

by W.M.L. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 537 comments [52 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:46:02 PM

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prosecutors realize that any jail sentence for a cop is a death sentence

No system made of human agents will work flawlessly. A corollary of that is that not all prosecutors think alike on sentencing cops and not all cops jailed get killed in there. 

I remember the Rodney King case. I can't recall if the offending police were jailed but I do remember that there was some accountability.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:21:06 PM

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prosecutors realize that any jail sentence for a cop is a death sentence

No system made of human agents will work flawlessly. A corollary of that is that not all prosecutors think alike on sentencing cops and not all cops jailed get killed in there. 

I remember the Rodney King case. I can't recall if the offending police were jailed but I do remember that there was some accountability.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:22:37 PM

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Of  course, videos can also be edited by the police.

In the aftermath of the NYC 2004 convention, the police were caught doing just that.  On one of the few occaisions where they actually did go to court on one of their arrests, they showed up in court with a video that had been edited to make the accused look guilty.

Fortunately, the defense also had an original copy of the video, with the scene's that proved the innocence of the accused included.  They showed it, and then the case was quickly dropped.

--------------

What struck me most when I read the comments of the police was that it was exactly what was said after the nation had seen the Rodney King video.  They somehow try to make people believe that a video that clearly shows a police officer taking a violent and un-needed action is really misleading.  They litterally try to tell people that they can't believe what they just saw.  Then they'll try to spin lies and BS all around it.

Just watch the video with your own eyes and judge for yourself. 

by Samson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 49 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:32:51 PM

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Here are some pictures on Wikipedia that might jog your memory. Scroll down and you'll see pictures of the King and Queen of Sweden (it was a monarchy, but a democratic society) walking around just like anyone else with no secret service, no bodyguards, and no entourage.

When a government is democratic, its leaders do not need to be protected from its people because the people are not oppressed and subjugated. when citizens actually have a voice in government, there is no enmity between the people and their government.

This really happened. This is not photoshopped. It is actually possible. There is such a thing as democracy, even if we have never seen it and can't begin to imagine what it would look like. It isn't a myth.

I had an interesting little online discussion with somebody in Sweden who was defending capitalism by saying that it works fine in Sweden. I had to explain that Americans don't call the Swedish system capitalism, we call it socialism. The U.S. government doesn't believe that there should be any limits to predatory capitalism and calls such limits undemocratic because they make it possible for the citizens of a country to have a better quality of life than we have.

After WWII when our government, through Operation Paperclip, secretly brought Nazi war criminals to the U.S. and installed them in high-level policy-making positions where some of them remain to this day, our government became fascist and totally undemocratic. But the changes were gradual and subtle -- they did not occur all at once. Do you know who Henry Kissinger's mentor, Fritz Kraemer was? If you like conspiracy theories, you might find some or the late Mae Brussell's research interesting. Some of the names in this transcript of one of Mae's radio broadcasts from 1987 may also appear in the next administration. Here's a portion of the transcript, Mae reading from and commenting on an article from the Houston Post:

Then it goes on:

Ermarth's work in the U.S.-Soviet strategic evaluation during Zbigniew Brzezinski's tenure as Jimmy Carter's national security adviser impressed Casey.

That was that time period when the Polish Pope from Auschwitz was selected, thanks to Zbigniew Brzezinski. It was also the time of the heating up of the Cold War where they were to use Michael Ledeen, Paul Hansa, and Claire Sterling from the Center of Strategic International Studies to try to blame that disinformation on a Bulgarian-Soviet Union plot.

The column goes on:

Casey brought him back to the CIA in 1984 as his top intelligence officer on Soviet affairs.

Brzezinski is one of those people directly under Fritz Kraemer. Kraemer is the master puppet holding Kissinger in one hand, Brzezinski in the other. So that if a Democrat gets in [the White House] Brzezinski runs the NSC, and if [the Republicans get in, then Kissinger runs it].

The column goes on:

With futures wholly independent of the State Department, Sorzano and Ermarth will be tougher players in defense of the president's policies, less susceptible to bureaucratic pressures from Shultz.

In other words, they say they are accountable to nobody; They can be tougher in these matters; They can carry the president's policies — that's the main point of this: they don't carry them, they write them; And they are not susceptible to any bureaucratic pressures, weather it's George Shultz or any Secretary of State; And as I said before, they are accountable to nobody in the bureaucracy.

That's how things work in our government, but that is not how things work in a democracy.

by Mark E. Smith (21 articles, 30 quicklinks, 100 diaries, 1325 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 6:49:16 AM

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The U.S. government doesn't believe that there should be any limits to predatory capitalism

If a price was put on the head of members of the executive government that would be predatory capitalism and it would be taken as seriously as it should be taken.

A terrorism futures market was almost put together and was only prevented in the advanced stages out of concern that it might actually give terrorists a payoff for carrying out terrorist acts.

Bounty hunter capitalism is something that the government of the United States likes to reserve for itself through its agencies. If you or I were to engage in bounty hunter capitalism we'd be liable to be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder.

As for democracy - its orgins go back to Democritus the philosopher in ancient Athens (if I recall). You Americans have a participatory democracy (you have free speech which is far more important than one vote) in the United States its just that most of you don't effectively participate.

Some quibble that the United States is a republic. Granted. But it is still democratic enough for its citizens if its citizens know how to be citizens.

Even in ancient Athens people that couldn't put an argument or a speech together didn't have much success with their lonely vote.  Even in ancient athens some citizens had louder voices and deeper pockets and could get other citizens to make speaches for them. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 7:20:55 AM

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When those that lead have to be protected from those they lead, they're not leaders, they're rulers.

Welcome to the Democratic Party so many of you say is our only hope, to you I say, your hope is misplaced. What you just saw will continue to happen if and when your precious Obama makes it into office.

Not that McInsane will be any better.

But it those of you who will say things like there is no chance for a Third Party candidate to win are the people with the batons. Your beat down democracy with every effort you make to keep this two-party/one-party system in place by living in the matrix you by virtue of your lemming-like blindness and defeatist capitulation to the masters perpetuate.

All my adult life I have watched this play out as the propaganda machine works its magic over those dumb enough to listen to the sirens song that always ends at the end of a baton. Those of you who call yourselves "Independents" but wind-up still voting for a Democratic candidate aren't really "independent" at all, you're fools.

In a recent poll 64% said they would vote for "none of the above".

"None of the above", why not Cynthia McKinney? Why not Nader? Ron Paul? Why are these names not in play? What would happen if that 64% came together and used the power they have? How much higher would that number be if there was a concerted effort to organize and get these so-called independents to break free of the matrix instead of regurgitating the same tripe we've been feeding on that our masters keep shoveling us?

To those of you still in that matrix, look again at that video, that's your Democratic Party. Your masters are a mile-and-a-half away from that incident. They'll never see it. They won't know or care it happened. At least the ones at the top of the putrid heap won't and don't care. There may be many well meaning people in the buffer-domes of our mock-republic that if they see this video that would be alarmed, but how far does that go? For the most part most of them will feel that women deserved what she got. She's not playing by the rules, because if she were she'd be in that dome with them, safe, buffered, close to power.  

No, your false democratic/republic is safe behind miles of barbed-wire and police thugs. But you're not. You're no more safe from that brutality than that women is, you're still licking the boots of those that pretend to help, if they only could get past all those "obstacles" and if we only would make more "sacrifices".

You've sacrificed alright. You've sacrifice your soul, mind, freedom and country to a party that hides from you, beats you, cages you, lies to you, and murders you. And you lap it up. You make excuses for those that, when you turn your backs on them put a knife in it.

But there will be no talk of breaking free from this fake two-party/one-party system on this site. No enlightened talk of a truly independent movement. No, there will be statements made that voting for a Third party candidate is "throwing you vote away", "spoiler", "not enough votes" and every other defeatism rational that I've been hearing all my life to keep us at the end of the baton. Even though the majority is not with either party, like barnacles clinging to a sinking ship, you'll deny that it can't be done.

I'm tired of hearing it. I'm tired of those of you who spew this tripe. You're the ones that only think you're free, you don't act it though. You hide behind your rationalizations, without knowing you're hiding. You cower in your hope that even though in the back of your mind you know your hope is wasted on a candidate who spews lies.

If there are any votes wasted this election, it will be the ones placed for either Obama or Mccain.

You will not see the end of wars voting for either of these parties. You won't see an end to poverty, discrimination, immigration, depression, repression or anything else you hold as a progressive ideal, because the party you are voting for holds the baton.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:49:54 AM

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You will not see the end of wars voting for either of these parties. You won't see an end to poverty, discrimination, immigration, depression, repression or anything else you hold as a progressive ideal, because the party you are voting for holds the baton.

 I found it very amusing how some educated individuals actually blame republicans for the woman being beaten.  HELLO???  These are Democrats protesting other DEMOCRATS!  If anything, a Republican would be taking video of the protest and using it as an example of how split the party is...  Unity?  PLEASE...  

However, it does not matter, because BOTH "parties" are rigging the elections with the Dibold Touch screen Machines, the people's vote WILL NOT MATTER, yet, rather than fix THAT problem, they complain about the actions of the individual members of the parties... It is absurd!

It would be like forgetting about the Bank Robber who shot 3 people so as to focus on the person who filled out a deposit slip out the wrong way!

If anyone thinks about that analogy, they will recognize it for the truth that it is.

Ciao, CZ

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 9:13:48 AM

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However, it does not matter, because BOTH "parties" are rigging the elections with the Dibold Touch screen Machines, the people's vote WILL NOT MATTER, yet, rather than fix THAT problem, they complain about the actions of the individual members of the parties... It is absurd!

Can't be true as you are suggesting Steve. Even if every voting booth in every polling station in every state was a Dibold Touch screen machine with  a single software backdoor built into it that allowed it to be hacked it still wouldn't work because the hack would have to centrally coordinately and  remotely implemented in real time and that would require a degree of collusion between the Democrat party leadership and the Republican party leadership together that isn't possible.

That sort of collusion when there is real power at issue, in terms of who will be President, and who will control the senate and who will have a majority in congress is like positing collusion between hundreds of starving piglets converging on a handful of teets.  And in the case of the Presidency hundreds of tapeworms and parasites in the guts of two piglet vectors converging on one teet. 

The power is too real and too desired by too many to as yet have been centralised.  Hacked machines might swing a seat here or there but a single hack point in a single machine model can't determine who will be President because that degree of centralised coordination and control behind a facade of Republican party and Democratic party isn't yet possible in the United States.  Your founding fathers gave you a better system of checks and balances than you are appreciating.  Its corruptible but not thoroughly corruptible.

It can turn against foreigners enough to enrage them to go to war with it but it can't reliably and controllably turn directly against an overwhelming majority of Americans. The dishonorableness of Americans to each other works for its stability too. 

In thoroughly corrupt systems when the desire for power is all, like in Rome around the time of Claudius, or Britain in the time of Richard the third, the oligarchs fight to the death amongst themselves for power.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 10:31:28 AM

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Have you read Greg Palast's book, Best Democracy Money Can Buy?, or watched the movies Un-counted, Hacking Democracy, or visited sites like Brad- Blog, Velvet Revolution?

Because if you had you wouldn't be making statements as naive as those you utter.

And if you have and still believe that a vast number of votes can not be controlled from a centalized point, that would lead to other even more distrubing conclusions.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:21:32 AM

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selection of candidates. So was my reply.

Of course money plays a role in the selection of which candidates get shortlisted to run. If you had enough money to buy influence perhaps only privileged access to both parties and you didn't do it, you wouldn't be playing the game hard as it is currently configured to be played. 

Chimps picks the nits from as many potentially powerful chimps as possible.

But that doesn't change my comments about the voting process itself not being perfectly centrally riggable on the actual election day.  

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:58:46 AM

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makes no sense at all.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:12:40 PM

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You are not wrong to recognize that money coming from corporations and elsewhere influences who can be elected or who can be successful in either party.

But whatever else you political model has in it, I am saying that it is incomplete if you don't recognize that rivalry between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party for seats and for power IS real. They aren't just pretenting to be in opposition to each other when it comes to which of them gets power. It is real because the people running for the seats are real. They want the real benefits of office personally.

The rivalry between Obama and Clinton was real. The rivalry between Obama and McCain for President will be real. Those men both personally want the power.  The rivalry between Pelosi and Steny Hoyer for influence is real.

In this election both the Democratic party and the Republican party will have scrutineers operating (members of the parties "faithful") that are absolutely genuine in their desire to see that their preferred party and their preferred candidates are not screwed. They are as faithfully unthinkingly loyally democrat or republican as some people are christian or muslim. No single puppet-master will be pulling all the scrutineers strings. Not possible. Too many strings. 

Even if the one technology, say a touch screen Diebold was used, everywhere, it wouldn't be possible to roll that technology out to every polling both with a single hackable flaw in it in the world of 2008 and not get caught by some genuine scrutineers with strong connections to candidates who genuinely want power and who will be willing to fight for it.  

Now you might say so what, if some scutineers complain and they get caught as per close calls such as in Ohio or Florida and corrupt judges put the fix in and award the election. And like Gore and Kerry neither Obama nor McCain would want to make a contest. But Gore (Florida) and Kerry (Ohio) were particular cases. Corrupt judges aren't yet that numerous nor that loyal that they could predictably swing a multitude of states for either the democrats or the republicans on the basis of a single communication telling them hey this Presidency is going to the Rs or the Ds. They'd have to be pre-primed for R or for D well in advance of the election. And that degree of corruption is asking too much of too many judges who despite their best endeavors can only be human (including tribal) even in their corruptability. Judges are appointed not like government on four year terms but essentially for life. Even Satan running the Republican party (or the Democrats I only pick on the Republicans because the last two elections have seen Republican Presidents nominating federal judges) hasn't had enough time to corrupt all the Democrat sympathetic judges in all the states yet since the 2000 election which was pretty damn close despite the hanging chad/voting machine problems. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:09:34 PM

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because the machine manipulation can be completely untraceable...  and yes, it CAN be THAT bad....  BTW, did anyone else notice how a news reporter from ABC was arrested for trying to report NEWS???

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 6:35:41 PM

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Tell me with what technology, (hardware, software, whatever you like), you have come to the conclusion that people like me, people who are interested in technology and there are quite a few of us, living amongst you you know, who don't like to be duped or enslaved or conspired against any more than you do), tell me specifically how technologically, and logistically, can a nationwide election day fix be pulled off, that will get past us - in your opinion. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:01:21 AM

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       One thing both parties agree on is that excessive force is fine. The police will investigate "the context" of the situation that provoked this animal to hit a women with a batton. These guys cover up their badge numbers with black tape. The fake media will not cover this incident. They don't cover violence against Americans, Afghans, Iraquis, Palestenians and the poor and powerless. We demonstrate from pens now. They give us free speech areas like China. They will not cover Tienamen square here when it happens. It goes way beyond democrats and Republicans. This is policy now for the para military police force backed up by the notab;ly self disciplined national guard and black water {contractors}  God bless America!

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 9:40:23 AM

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has the video here too.

the results of a search for "police brutality in the US". Which one to select? There are so many. Don't watch this clip unless you are strong. Why wasn't the US Olympic team banned from the games these past few weeks? Oh, I'm sure that one will reap a few ugly remarks. Maybe not.

"Not enough evidence to pursue crimnial charges"

That's how this incident is going to end.

Wake up, America! Wake up and smell the fascism. This was not an isolated occurance. It's part of a trend. Don't be afraid to hit the streets. The System wants you to be afraid to hit the streets because they don't want you to hit the streets. I'm just wondering how policemen feel about this. I know I would find it disturbing if I were a police officer out there risking my life, day in and day out with people now buying their own tasers -for their personal protection- from police brutality like this, e.g.

Check out this Press Conf.   , scenes from the "Recreate 68" rally & march , and this one .

Do remember, this is not limited to Denver or the USA (sign-up and birth date confirmation required because it is ultra brutal), the shite has gone global, as the fascism has. Okay, there's a very high concentration of facsism in the US.

Police brutality is the intentional use of excessive force, usually physical, but potentially also in the form verbal attacks and psychological intimidation, by a police officer, prison officer or other law enforcement officer. It may be carried out at the initiative of an individual officer, or in response to orders given to the officer, or in response to governmental or administrative policies.

Widespread police brutality exists in many countries, even those that prosecute it.

"in response to governmental or administrative policies" ?? Yes. In this case, policies of the Democratic Party which is imo still nothing more than the left wing of the corporate party. Sorry guys, I have to stick with what I know and what I see is the truth of the matter. The DNC was expecting many more people in Denver. This is why the police force is out in such great numbers. Dubya didn't do it. Dick didn't do it. Condi didn't do it. Your Dems did. They called for protection. I say/claim. That's how I see it.

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 9:43:56 AM

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the officer's face and get a still snap shot image of it between the seventh and eight second, I heard, and I wonder if it is the young woman that says (tauntingly) "do it again" (as in, perhaps, make my day, shove me again, but this time with the camera on, so that I can be seen on a film that my confederate will make, as I fall over).

Not all 24 year old young women are beyond playing for an umpire. The genes for plotting and scheming are probably not resident on the Y chromosome. There isn't room for them.

Every child produced by a rapist or scheming scoundrel gets on average fifty percent of the genes of the rapist or of at least one scheming scoundrel as well - including the female children.

That's why we current humans are all such angels no doubt. We are decendants of thousands of generations of people that all lived long enough by one way or another in difficult circumstances, in competition mostly with each other for our resources. That we are here is testament to nothing more certain than that each of our many ancestors managed somehow or other to breed.

Every human alive on the planet has the genetic make up and pedigree of thousands of years of interbreeding with scoundrels - kind of gives one a warm feeling inside just thinking about it. Good luck with the war on terror that places 95% of the terrorising scoundrels outside of the USA (United Scoundrelling Association) peeing into the tent.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:46:47 AM

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Alicia said. And the idiot did it again. He had already shoved her once, or so I gathered from one of the reports I read somewhere during the course of the day. I'm glad Alicia wasn't badly injured. I'd like to see the police officer, sherrif or whatever the guy is....hit hard with the full extent of the law. THESE guys need to be punished and made an example of, not Alicia or anyone else from Code Pink or any other group of citizens on the streets, exercising their rights of free speech and the right to gather publicly. Did I spell that right? The so-called free-speech zones the US now has are illegal as I see it. Make that unconstitutional.

Wanna see my taser? 

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:42:51 PM

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The older I get the more I despise cops.

Glorified revenue generators and protectors of the regime are all they are.

Take away their guns and they're nothing.

With friends like them who needs enemies?

Get a real job!

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 1094 comments [65 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 9:51:32 AM

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a lot of my friends are cops. I like cops ! Cops are just like we are, good blogger bad blogger. Get it ? I like cops but I can't stand a bad cop.

Do YOU wanna see my taser? And no, I aint no cop. I'm street-smart. 

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:46:43 PM

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   I agree, but in my town the cops have gone out of control in the past 5 years. I believe they're just following orders, but it's almost to the point of

harassment. They've generated so much revenue for every "ticky tack" traffic violation that I can remember. Everything trickles downward from the top. From this corrupt administration to state and local governments. They're getting prepped for martial law.

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 1094 comments [65 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:18:31 PM

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My bet is they cut their teeth on this type of inhumanity in Iraq, Abu Ghrab and Gitmo. Sow the wind reap the whirlwind, the guard has been hardened off for what's coming next. At a vigil last night, in response to my questioning an argumentative Iraq Vet about indiscriminate bombing of 90+ dead civilians in Afghanistan, he said they signed up for that. I repeated the question stating that among the 90+ dead, 60 were children. He said people die every day.

These people have in fact lost touch with their humanity and are drunk with the power of life and death.

by tjb (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 255 comments [9 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:19 AM

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Funny, they're OK with that statement as long as it's not them.

Brainwashed and numb they have become.

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 1094 comments [65 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 10:28:27 AM

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We haven't seen anything yet.

The fascists aren't just turning out sociopathic killers that they get from the ghettos they've created and placing  these sociopaths in places such as Iraq, they're aggressively recruiting felons from prison and foreign mercenaries.

What do some police feel about harming innocent citizens?

Not a damn thing.

We have yet to see what's to take place. The systematic partitioning of where we can travel, what neighborhoods we can go to, when and where we will be able to venture our of our homes is being perfected in Palestine, Baghdad, New Orleans after Katrina, and Denver as we speak.

Soon, sooner than most fear to think, scenes worse than this will be taking place in every city and town across this nation. Our only hope is that there are enough people of authority that haven't been corrupted that instead of suppressing us, join us. But that hope fades with each passing day we don't hold the masters of this country accountable for their crimes.

I've been noticing that 9/11 hasn't been mentioned at this convention. In all the speeches I've heard it's been absent. It seems strange considering we're so close to another anniversary, but not unusual to those of us who suspect why. It's the elephant in the room, the 800lb Gorilla that is getting hungry for attention. But not in the way this b.s. Democratic Party wants to give it attention, or inattention is this case.

No, people (still far too few) are starting wake-up to the fact that you can't commit a crime of this magnitude without at least the complicity of silence that's coming from those in a Democratic Party that have been in it for way too long. It stretches one's imagination to believe that anyone in high office, from governor on up, wouldn't know by now, or before-hand, that the crime of September 11, 2001 was committed by factions with-in this corrupt two-party system.

The question shouldn't be how could they know, but, how could they not know?

So for a political party that is guilty of mass murder to bash a few heads with batons is child's play. Get use to it. It's coming to a neighborhood near you soon. Right after the next false-flag attack.

And don't think for a second it won't happen. As people do start to realize that mass murders are running the show these same said murders will have to do something to quell any rebellion, and I can promise you this, the next false-flag will dwarf 9/11. It will have to.

And most likely the sheeple that looked to this Democratic Party to save them will continue to look to them. Like an abused wife who keeps going back to the abuser, they'll believe the lies that this time they'll change. They'll believe the lies right-up to the time they're starving to death in one of Chertoff's FEMA Death Camps.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:07:56 AM

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Linda, thank you for posting this. I am so grateful to anybody who sheds light on the realities of civil liberties violations nowadays.

Of course cop violence is nothing new, but Tianenmen Square-type tactics to silent dissent in the USA IS new. That is, since post-911.

 It was about two years ago (in my best recollection) that Courage to Resist sent out a photo of dissenters in Louisiana? (or somewhere in the South) being clubbed EN MASSE my cops. The reason for their protest? The wrongful jailing of Lt Ehren Watada who, based on the sound legal argument that he took an oath to protect the Constitution and could be held responsible for war crimes for fighting an illegally-declared war, was refusing to be deployed to Iraq. Though he added that he was not against war and would fight in Afghanistan, he was threatened with disproportionate punishment just to make him a clone to discourage other soldiers from resisting and desisting.

So those protesting peacefully on Watada's behalf were clubbed by the National Guard, which infiltrated the protest, with baseball bats.

That's post-911 "Democracy" for you. While we fight "to protect Democracy" overseas, we draft legislation granting police and the FBI unilateral arrest powers unchecked by a judge or warrant, nix habeas corpus, define "Terrorists" (in the Patriot Act) to include activists, and generally create a dictatorship right here at home.

Hmmmmm....Curiouser and curiouser. The usurpations of American freedom need to be exposed en masse by us citizen journalists. We need to spread word by email and by dialing in to radio talk shows. Please continue to raise awareness and join the ACLU, former FBI agent Ted Gunderson, and many others in overturning the Patriot Act, restoring Habeas Corpus, overturning the torture bill (Military Commissions Act), etc. Better yet please help to unseat fascist members of Congress by publicly exposing their voting records in letters to the editor. Spread word, spread word, spread word! Let's get the fascists out and the good people in! Thank you.

by Kathryn Smith (110 articles, 2 quicklinks, 43 diaries, 542 comments [23 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:49:48 PM

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is a Constitutional Republic...(or is supposed to be) not a Democracy

by Susan Nelsen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 287 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:04:21 PM

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that freedom of speech is not protected. Hate to correct you.

The First amendment (no coincidence that it is the first one) states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

by Kathryn Smith (110 articles, 2 quicklinks, 43 diaries, 542 comments [23 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:34:29 PM

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Bill of Rights Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

by Kathryn Smith (110 articles, 2 quicklinks, 43 diaries, 542 comments [23 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:35:42 PM

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but in the recording you link to from the Denver newspaper above, about 7 seconds in it sounds like the woman says "fucken, do it again" or "fuck Ed (short for head), do it again", more than it sounds like "You're not gonna do it again".

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 2:29:27 PM

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but here again is your earlier link to the Rocky Mountain News copy. Six seconds in. 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 2:44:39 PM

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you may be right, Brett. I don't think so but I can't be certain and my ears hear only what they want to hear ...of late ;-)

peace to you and thanks for being in the mix. Tara ! 

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 2:44:59 PM

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What is the difference what this women said? The cop had no right or need to hit her. He hit her because he wanted to and he can. The words she uttered are irrelevent Unless she hit him first with a batton he is an animal. Words do not justify what this bum and bums like him do to citizens all over the world. It is their job to restrain themselves. Stealing doughnuts and apples, shaking down petty criminals are not the only aspects of their job description. Sure there are some good cops. To speak about good cops in this context only appologises for the disgusting behavior of this degenerate.

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 2:46:25 PM

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They are helpers, like the volunteers in hospitals who bring you your flowers. And they are metaphor for the ladies with pink ribbons marching against the scourge of breast cancer. In the case of Code Pink, they work directly on malignancy in the body politic.
I see Kathryn Smith pastes her bit of pink in the mix. Hi, Kathryn, I paid my ACLU dues yesterday.
Whatever else I had to say can wait. We've got two big nights. Then the final act will play out in St. Paul. There's where I peal my eyes for body language. I learned that before Nixon ever gave his "I am not a crook" speech. In his case it was watching the beads of perspiration on his upper lip. Sure wasn't stiff!
Hint: Obama, and even Biden, are not going to take McCain on the way we can. Senators are that way, starting with "my friend from ____" and then proceeding to present their own hobby horse. We the People are not among the Hundred Chosen. Let's learn how to tell John and Whoever that they don't get it, when we have chance.
It doesn't hurt to take on McCain's mentor either. He let's you write him at the White House. Get together with a few of your friends and write POTUS, in polite words, what you think of his latest pronouncement. At the least, it's good to get it off your chest. Remember to make it short. Attention span, you know.

by Margaret Bassett (45 articles, 2909 quicklinks, 42 diaries, 1851 comments [99 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:21:33 PM

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 The fact that we were ALL cheated in the "Bush" elections has made me doubt the outcome of any future voting machine outcomes. The crooks that did it the first time have no problems doing it again. They'll just get better at hiding the facts next time. It doesn't matter if your candidate won that election, even tough it was a con job of massive proportions, the fact that they cheated to do it proves that we cannot count on any electronic voting machines producing an honest election. Just think about how much money is spent in getting a candidate elected. These guys don't like losing money and will do what is necessary to win.

The fact that the 2000 election was so obviously rigged was  an outward display of the kind of power "they" actually have. These "people" will put into office the person "THEY" want in office and there's nothing we can do about it. They blatantly thumb their noses at us and dare us to try.

The only way to trap them at their own game would be for everyone to agree to NOT vote for either of "their" choices. That way, when they announce that Obamarama or McCannot won, we'd know the machines were rigged. Of course, that's never going to happen. Too many people still have their heads up their asses to notice what's going on around them and the idea of getting everyone to agree is preposterous.

"...Overrating the extent of the voting machine risk."  ???? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. As long as the criminal elements within our Governmental body are able to commit such crimes without fear of incarceration they will continue. Until we are able to clean up the Repugnicans and the Demolax we will always be in danger of being ripped off at the polls.
When the man (woman) "elected" can lie, cheat, murder, invade, etc. and get away with it, and we, as a people, do nothing, the standard of behavior for all those that follow is set. When our representatives ignore our demands for impeachment it's time to elect new representatives. If they still don't hear us then we should pull them out of office and replace them with someone else who will.

Until this happens I will never trust my Government Officials nor will I have any faith in electronic voting machines, paper trail or not.

If we do NOT stand up for what is right we will be left with what is wrong.

by Ginger McClemons (17 articles, 1 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 101 comments [25 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 6:39:47 PM

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And if the few news reports that are out there proving voter tampering and the blatent vote fraud of NOT only Diebold, but also ES&S systems, if they aren't enough...

... just look at how the elected officials respond to us these days. They barely mask their contempt for us, and I believe that is because they are fully aware of whom it is they serve; who they have to please. Take FISA for instance.

No, there is no question about the outcome of the elections. McCain/Lieberman will "win" and it will continue with business as usual. The only difference is, if you think Cheney is one evil puppet master, just wait till Lieberman gets in there. Cheney's Viceroy 4th branch of government position will become nothing less than a dictatorship under Lieberman.

by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:08:54 PM

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And if the few news reports that are out there proving voter tampering and the blatent vote fraud of NOT only Diebold, but also ES&S systems, if they aren't enough...

widespread (nationwide) centrally coordinated fraud going deep enough to decisively determine a Presidential election gives too much credit to villians to supernaturally organise themselves. It posits too much honor amongst too many thieves.

Sure different electronic voting systems can each have different hackable points, but coordinating centrally those larger numbers of hackable points, if you are positing a conspiracy to award the Presidency to one candidate, involves more points of complexity to manage and more thieves to be kept honorable. Two party, Republican/Democrat tribalism actually mitigates against that sort of conspiracy theory working nationwide.

If only Obama/Biden and McCain/(whoever) are running then only one of the two combinations will win. If it happens to be McCain/whoever are you really going to claim you've made some sort of impressive prediction here that you should get more credit for than if you'd correctly called a coin toss?

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:24:25 AM

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Of course this is what 'Democracy' looks like.....just google for Kent State and there is a great example of 'Democracy'.  Might makes right.....and without vidio cameras, those in charge would be getting away with a lot more.  When they get you in a closed room though....you will be on your own.

Veteran, '66-68

by Roger (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 465 comments [22 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 7:36:06 PM

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.... 'Of course this is what 'Democracy' looks like.....just google for Kent State and there is a great example of 'Democracy'.  Might makes right.....and without vidio cameras, those in charge would be getting away with a lot more.  When they get you in a closed room though....you will be on your own."

Even with video cameras and the culprits caught red handed they STILL GET OFF if they have a badge on their puffed up chests. Here in Florida in a Juvenile Camp for young offenders a 14 yr old asthmatic was killed by a group of what poses as cops. It was a clear case of abuse, even as they shoved an amonia cap up this childs nose to try and revive him, even after they waited far too long to call the EMT's, even as the 'nurse' stood watching and doing nothing, it was all caught on camera and they all got off all the charges. Notice how they gather around him to try and block the camera? The only good thing to come out of it was the award the family got. Just another blemish on the good old boy state of florida. The outrage just keeps on keeping on.

by Ginger McClemons (17 articles, 1 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 101 comments [25 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:14:57 AM

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Real Democracy 

I think there is an interesting element to this that isn't being stressed here. And that is what the other cops did after she was struck by this deputy.

You can see that they gathered together while she was being picked up, and they seem to have devised a plan to arrest her so that her injuries would be legally justifiable (in some courts), then they moved quickly, snatched this INNOCENT woman whom they KNEW  was innocent, and the others quickly encircled the arresting officer and his "catch".

This is clearly a conspiracy by the officers to inflict even more harm on this woman, legally and physically, in order to protect one of their own AFTER that cop... committed a crime.

This is collusion, I believe. This is their "us vs them" mentality that doesn't bode well for what is to come.

by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:02:59 PM

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Comment from Ratings:   a video speaks a thousand words ... thanks for giving this coverage, Linda!

by Meryl Ann Butler (70 articles, 82 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 721 comments [29 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:11:32 AM

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Comment from Ratings:   A friend who attended the convention on Wed & Thurs reported that she too witnessed the Police State surrounding the convention. She was shocked and horrified to see the Iraq Veterans against the Iraq War being held at baton's length and not being allowed to protest. There is something very wrong with this picture. I'm voting for Obama because the alternative is totally unacceptable.

by Penel (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 53 comments) on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:38:28 PM

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At least Obama has a running mate that knows what a VP is supposed to do. McCaint's running mate is a 44 yr old woman who had to ask, "exactly what is it that a Vice President does(?)". With five kids in tow it makes me wonder when she had time to do her job...or raise her kids. But that was cleared up for me when I learned that her 17 yr old daughter does the child rearing. That must have  ticked the daughter off  because she went out and got herself pregnant with one of her own. (Her mother was a great role model...always pregnant like a good wife). But I guess Govenor Sarah Palin feels it's better to have an unwed pregnant teenaged daughter than to have the word abortion fall out of her mouth. With the world already over populated, the idea of having a mormonesque VP, who has no idea what her job entails, in a position to take over the Presidency, should that white haired dude kick the bucket, is downright chilling. That must really have the Repugnicans salivating at the prospect of having the perfect puppet waiting in the wings. Better than that Bush puppet.  The Democraps better watch out.    Check out the web page to see what Palin looks like.

by Ginger McClemons (17 articles, 1 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 101 comments [25 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:52:46 AM

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