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Klein: Hmmmm-hmmmm. Well there, like I said, there is this window now where the terms of the bailout are being discussed. And it’s a really, really important window and unfortunately it’s also the most important window for the election. So everybody, you know, who is an Obama supporter is focused on, you know, getting out the vote and this final push and meanwhile, the terms of the bailout are being negotiated. And this is going to radically affect the room that Obama has to maneuver. So, there has to be some time spared for putting political pressure on that negotiation.
And one key demand is that, now that they have moved partially to the nationalization, as opposed to buying the toxic debt, the real issue is how much of the money is going to be spent on the toxic debt versus this other root and we really need to minimize the amount that’s spent on these toxic debts. Because this is just a bad plan, a discredited plan. The Bush Administration with their usual stubbornness won’t let go. The other thing is…
Kall: All right, so…
Klein: Yes.
Kall: So, so, we’ve got people who want to do something. They’re going to take time out from doing canvassing and phone-banking. They’re going to call their legislators. What are they going to tell them? What should they say?
Klein: They’re going to say…
Kall: What are their next phone calls?
Klein: Abandon the original plan completely. This is just, you know, at this point, this is just pride and cronyism that it’s still alive. There, there have…Every economist, every, even the conservative Wall Street Journal and FT Editorial Page has said that the equity plan is a far better plan than the toxic debt. Now why are they spending hundreds of billions of dollars buying these toxic debts still? They should abandon that plan along with the crony contracts that they’re handing out to administer the plan.
Kall: Okay, now, the last thing I want to rap with you on is I want to talk a little bit about John McCain and his approach to economics. What you said at the Chicago School was that his inexperience plays into the Friedman shock doctrine economic approac h. Talk a little bit about McCain and Palin and where you see them going with economic approaches.
Klein: Look, I mean, we’ve been talking about what the right strategy would be if Obama wins. And one way I think that we can think about this economic crisis is that it’s sort of Republicans buying insurance against an Obama Presidency. And so they are able to say, “NO you can’t” about all the things that he’s saying “Yes We Can.” Now they don’t need insurance against a McCain Presidency because it’s in McCain’s platform that he wants to privatize Social Security. He’s already saying that he’s going to freeze spending. He’s already saying that he’s going to look at every single government program and, if it isn’t working, either reform it or shut it down. So he’s really talking about a shock therapy program after he’s elected and you know, I think if he is elected, which is a terrifying prospect, I think he really will do it because, you know, there is unfinished business from the Bush years. Most notably, the privatization of Social Security…
Kall: You’ve gotten one of those Clinton words- “it.” What is it that he will do; you said he will really do “it.”
Klein: Do “it.” That he really will eliminate all kinds of important programs and really will privatize Social Security because there is a window of opportunity after an election win where a politician has a mandate and they are able to do things very, very quickly, particularly if they can appeal to an economic crisis. So, I think that that’s precisely what they will do. And, you know, I guess what I said at the University of Chicago is that the appeal of this free market ideology, the Friedmanite Market Ideology, is that it says to politicians who are in over their heads when it comes to economics, that actually all they need to do is to get out of the way and let the market work it’s magic. Right?
So the fact that Obama - sorry - the fact that McCain admits that he doesn't know anything about the economy, and went ahead and chose a running mate, who knows even less - actually makes him much more inclined to embracing the very simple - it's really not an ideology, it's a series of talking points that the government is the problem and not the solution and so on - so basically it's an abdication of his responsibility to govern and I think that's why this ideology has carried so much appeal - for you know - not to be too snide - but you know - some actor presidents, bodybuilder Governor's and so on.
Kall: McCain also has Phil Gramm to appoint as the Treasury Secretary, right?
Klein: Yeah, and Phil Gramm made it his mission to get the, to get a medal of honor for Milton Friedman before he died. So he's a - Yeah, - he's very much a believer in this ideology but I don't think - for guys like him that it is really the ideology that drives it - I mean this is an ideology that is a gift to business - so you know what's driving it, is it that this is an incredible way to keep your donors happy - keep yourself in power or because you really believe that this is the best way to organize society? The beauty of the free market ideology is that you don't have to choose between self-interest and true belief - they're the same thing.
Kall: Amazing - Naomi Klein, author of Shock Doctrine. You said you had to go, do you have any time left or is it time to leave?
