Rob Kall: So, what I'm asking though, is what does it look like? You're doing something with Andrew Harvey that is moving in this direction. Are there already some churches, some organizations some groups that are doing what you're talking about? How can people find this as an alternative to what they've been getting from Ratzinger and his Right wing Cardinals?
Matthew Fox: Good question. Yes. I've been teaching Creation Spirituality for forty  years, which is this tradition of justice and creativity, peace and wisdom, and incorporating the Divine Feminine along with the Sacred Masculine. There's a website, there's an organization called Creation Spirituality communities, CSC. They have many groups all over the country, all over the world, really, practicing these things, and we've had schools and so forth, and many people are teaching this. Harvey has a group called "Sacred Activism," so that's another organization. ]
There are many organizations like this, and I think now is the time for more and more networking, because there is a lot of exploration going on out there. Do you know how many Jewish people have become Buddhist in the last thirty years, or at least have incorporated Buddhism? That's a powerful thing too. The protest energy of Judaism, the prophetic tradition and the intellectual tradition of Judaism, along with the more serene, if you will, more contemplative tradition of Buddhism, that is a very powerful combination. A lot of people, of course from my generation, I'm in my young seventies [70s] now, went East for their spirituality, but a lot of them feel called, too, to incorporate that into their Western ancestry, and so forth. That's a lot that's going on.
In the Catholic Church today, and this doesn't make news much, but there's more and more small communities happening, where they meet for Mass on Sunday or something, but in small groups. They'll have women presiding, they'll have married Priests presiding, they'll have Gay people presiding, but they're doing it together in a circle. It's not about idolizing one ordained person up at the altar.
Rob Kall: So, you just said that, in the Catholic church, people are getting together in small communities, getting together in a circle, sometimes led by women. Is this happening in Catholic Churches, or is it happening in peoples' homes?
Matthew Fox: It's happening in homes, it's happening in rented halls, it's happening in Protestant churches; some of these groups are, in effect, renting the space, Protestant churches or even Jewish synagogues to do this. That's what's interesting, people are using their imaginations, and they're realizing that they're not being fed in the Catholic system anymore. So many people have told me over the last few years, especially these days, that they can't go to Mass anymore, because what is being preached and taught there is so Patriarchal, it's so sexist, it's so top down, that their souls are not being fed. And so they realize they have to take what I call "Take the beauty from the burning building, take what's of worth, the treasure from the burning building, and putting in different forms in different gatherings," and this is happening.
And then of course there's Mens Movement. It's very important that men deal with their spiritual evolution as women have been doing for decades. I think this is essential too, that we have a detoxed sense of masculinity, a cleaned up masculinity. I wrote about this a couple of years ago in my book called The Hidden Spirituality of Men. But men are yearning, really, to get in deeper touch with healthy spirituality. And again, the Patriarchal model that you're getting, such as from these last two Popes, is not adequate, because neither is the "football model," or the "I win, you lose" model. It's reptilian brain stuff, and men are realizing more and more that they can do better than that.
Rob Kall: This is the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show, WNJC 1360 AM, reaching metro Philly and South Jersey, sponsored by Opednews.com where you get Liberal news and opinion. I'm speaking with Matthew Fox. He's the author of The Popes War, a former Catholic Priest, and we've been starting off talking about Pope Ratzinger and his resignation, but we've moved on and we've talked about perhaps the future of the Catholic religion for Catholics who no longer tolerate the top down, hierarchical, Patriarchal way that the Catholic church is stuck.
Now, Matthew, you just talked about how people are leaving because the church is top down and so Patriarchal. I've come to believe for many years that Conservatism, the Right wing, it is anti-feminine. Not just anti-women as we learned in the last Presidential election, but it opposes the whole idea of the feminine archetype. Have thoughts on that?
Matthew Fox: Absolutely. As I say, what does the Taliban, the Vatican, and Pat Robertson [each word said stressing the last syllable as "ahn"] all have in common? It's this rabid fear of the feminine. And of course, the idea of the Divine Feminine is absolutely sends them out the window. So this is a great insight to realize to realize that this is what the real battle is about. It's this balance of Yin and Yang, of the masculine and the feminine, of the Divine Feminine and the Sacred Masculine.
This is really where a lot of the struggle is being played out, and this is why you'll have the Vatican beating up on women. Now they're coming after the sisters! I mean, how you can come after Catholic Sisters (laughs), who've devoted their whole life to working the front line, to the poor, and educating, and working in inner cities, and all the rest; it's hard to fathom, especially when this very church has been covering up priestly pedophilia for decades. But you realize, just what you're talking about, that the drive to control women is behind so much of Fundamentalism.
I think it goes back, frankly, to the old days. The Goddess Chaos used to be honored in the old days before Patriarchy took over. She was integrated, chaos, into society and into people's lives in that culture. As Patriarchy took over around 4500 BC, the myths changed; and now Chaos was no longer a Goddess that was honored and incorporated, she became the enemy, she became something evil. So you have Marduk killing Tiamat. And I think that all fundamentalism is based on this ideology, that men are taught in that context that their job is to control the feminine, especially the goddess Chaos.
This held sway for centuries until the 1960s, when science itself finally rediscovered the value of chaos, the Chaos Theory, that nature operates with chaos. The weather system is chaotic, the ellipses of the planet and so forth, is chaotic. So this imperfection is in fact part of all creativity, and so now we can shift gears and realize that the Goddess Chaos is integral to all of our lives, and it's all about creativity. This is why Fascism and Fundamentalism (and they're always in bed together), they cannot tolerate our creativity, because creativity includes the Goddess Chaos, and it includes the Feminine. So this is really what we're up against.
Rob Kall: OK. Let me just pick your brain a little bit on this. You talk about the Goddess Chaos and how she was celebrated until patriarchy took over about 4500 BC, then you talk about Marduk killing Tiamat. Now you're referring to Gilgamesh there, I believe. Right?
Matthew Fox: Right.
Rob Kall: Yeah. So, what happened in 4500 BC?