RS: -- and everything else. But I watched this documentary [Living in the Future's Past], which I'm promoting here -- Jeff Bridges, as you pointed out, that your group had a lot to do with --
DC: Well, and also the STRAWS documentary.
RS: I suddenly realized, this is not kidding around. This is really serious stuff. And now I've even been sobered up to the point where recycling doesn't cut it. And I know you don't want to be pushed quite that far, but you know, as a reformed alcoholic here, I believe in abstinence. And if something's a poison for you, as I feel alcohol is for me -- I'm not proselytizing for anybody else -- then I have to abstain, which I've done most of my adult life, OK. And I feel the same way about plastic. You know, I'm hooked on plastic; it's been there, as I say, it's been this wonderful, shiny, supple, easy, cheaper thing that has informed my entire life. And yet, recycling it doesn't really cut it; nobody wants our junk, the price drops, the money's not in it. And abstinence, finding alternatives to plastic, is really your message here. Because we're kidding ourselves, in a way, with the recycling. And the alternative, really, is to understand that this shiny object is the death of us.
DC: Well, I don't want to talk about death. It's inevitable. But -- but, let's talk about another cool thing that just came out in the last week: an announcement from all of this data from a new brand audit that was created by #BreakFreeFromPlastic. And what did they find? Three main companies were identified in 239 cleanups and brand audits, which were actually created across 42 different countries on six different continents, and what did they find? They found that Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Co, and Nestle are the worst corporate polluters.
RS: So, ah, let me understand what this means, though. What is the quick fix for these three companies? Let's say a lot of pressure is brought on them, and so forth; what do they do? Do they go back to glass and recycle? What do they do?
DC: Ah, well --
RS: Tin cans? I don't know.
DC: I mean, if they wanted a person like me to buy any of their products, I only would buy their products if they were packaged in glass. But you know, it's interesting, because when I look at photographs of the supermarket here in California in the seventies, all of the beverages were in glass. And there was really a switchover that was made in the eighties.
RS: OK, let's say in the interest of equal free time, we have a representative here from Pepsi-Co. And what they said was they were Pepsi, being free, you know, the Pepsi generation. They were selling a lifestyle. So were Coca-Cola, also; a little stuffier, Coca-Cola. And that lifestyle was really expanded dramatically by the use of plastic. Plastic and soft drinks, that's really a critical connection. So you've got one of those enlightened capitalists at Pepsi-Co right now in front of you.
DC: Well, I mean, all of these companies have sustainability directors. I think in the time since we founded Plastic Pollution Coalition in 2009, there have been three different sustainability directors for Coca-Cola that I've met. These companies often, when I've spoken with their sustainability directors, say -- oh, we're working on a bunch of great stuff, it's going to be fantastic. And I say, I can't wait to see -- I had a dream the other night that you just connected the cap on your plastic bottle, you know, and then took 100% of them back. So we really need to see extended producer responsibility that holds these corporations responsible for all of the packaging that they use for their products.
RS: OK. Well, let me cut to the chase here, because I learned something just in the course of this podcast, that recycling is not the answer. And I had hints of it before, but I deluded myself that if I -- you know, when I leave here, I'll probably go get a soft drink somewhere. And I would grab that plastic bottle, and then I would console myself that I'm doing it at a place that has a recycling bin, you know, bins, and I would throw it in there -- OK! I did my good deed for the day. But you're basically telling me that's not cutting it.
DC: Well, I'm not -- like I said, I'm not dissuading people from putting things into the recycling, but I'm talking about the real -- what is the reality of recycling? So recycling is a really nice idea, but it's somewhat of a myth. Because if you live in a town or a place that has no infrastructure to take back the materials and down-cycle them or do something with them, a lot of places in the world, many countries, say that they're turning it from waste into energy, but those are different forms of burning and incineration, or pyrolysis, and much of that creates particulate pollution, which is toxic in the air for all of us. So, is that really the solution? No, I think the solution is source reduction. So if you work for one of these big companies, and you're listening to this show right now, you need to turn around and think about how you're going to shift the whole system within your company. It has to happen.
RS: All right, but I want to push this, because I think it's an important point. First of all, the problem with recycling is a lot of people are not going to do it, OK. And so therefore, it doesn't get --
DC: Well, not that a lot of people aren't going to do it; people can do it, but if there's no structure in place to support it, it doesn't matter.
RS: But I've actually run into a few people who are in this industry of recycling. And the question there is, who wants this stuff? There's a limit to landfill for different kinds of recycling. And you came up with an interesting point before, that China doesn't want our recyclable plastic, right?
DC: Right.
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