RS: By the way, full disclosure, I'm also your editor at Truthdig. And you've written about some of this in a very compelling way. But take us back to that moment when the state of California was going to end your life.
KC: I was in a death chamber waiting room, they stripped me down buck-naked like a slave on an auction block, and they examined my body the same way they examined slaves on auction blocks, from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, and every part in between. And my life was on the clock. Every minute that ticked by, I knew I was going to be murdered by these people. You know, it was just an unreal, surreal type experience, but it is real. You know that these people are not playing with you. They are going to murder you. And it's hard to put into words. I mean, for anybody to really understand it, it's one of those real-life events that you'd have to experience personally to really understand. But this is wrong. Because I was psychologically tortured beforehand, and afterwards I've had years of post-traumatic stress disorder from having survived that near-death experience at the hands of these volunteer executioners, who are paid by the taxpayers of California. And what I wanted to say earlier, before I jumped on this, was this is America. And the death penalty is a part of America; it's a tradition in America. This crime against humanity is nothing new. So when the people of the state of California voted to speed up this thing, they were doing what comes natural to them, to these death penalty states, and these people who believe and support this thing. So this is all part of the same system that started with the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this land, went on to the slaves that were imported into this land, and then it just went on into the prison system. But it's the same thing, it's the same system. And I'm about to face this stuff again, if --
[Recorded voice on telephone] This call and your telephone number will be monitored and recorded.
KC: -- if I don't get some type of relief from the court. Or from the governor, or from somebody.
RS: What I want to really get across is, people can read and see, that -- if there's someone who really requires an innocence hearing, requires a retrial, requires looking at the evidence, at the Brady violations, the tampering, the things -- that's clear. But I also want them to understand there's a human being who's in the midst of this. What are we talking about here? We're talking about killing an innocent person who deserves, certainly, a hearing at least. And I've found our governor, Jerry Brown, to be kind of oblivious to this. Why? Because he said, "I'd have to believe a number of law enforcement agents framed a man" -- well, that's what Judge Fletcher said. He said, you are "on Death Row because the San Bernardino sheriff's department framed him."
KC: Let me say this, if you don't mind. You said something earlier about I deserve to have this stuff looked at. But see, that's the problem. Nobody wants to look at it. Jerry Brown, when he was the attorney general, made a statement that there are no innocent people on Death Row. And other people have supported him; republican district attorneys like that lame duck in San Bernardino County, Ramos, and other people have supported him. They have used his words against him. Not too long ago, a Death Row inmate got off of Death Row because the California Supreme Court said that he was convicted with false evidence, and he was on Death Row for 24 years. Now here comes my case, which Governor Brown had in his office for two and a half years, and refused to look at. So my point is this: they don't want to look at it, they don't want to see the truth. Because if they see the truth, then they'll see that their system is doing here in California what they've been doing all over the country. Having innocent people on Death Row, and probably executing them. They don't want to know. So if you don't want to know something, you don't look at it. You turn a blind eye to the truth. And this has been the plight of black people in this country. They have long turned a blind eye to the truth concerning us and our plight in this rotten-ass [09:14] criminal justice system. [Inaudible] That's what they go by. They don't give a damn about us. And Jerry Brown, in my opinion, is a moral coward.
RS: But OK, people are going to say Kevin Cooper is saying that in his defense. But I want to remind them, Judge Fletcher -- and I am going to post this entire dissent by Judge Fletcher -- he said, "the state failed to provide Cooper a fair hearing," that "the state obstructed and impeded Cooper and his lawyers in almost every way imaginable in denying his plea for a new hearing."
KC: And Judge Fletcher was just one of, we believe, 14 judges on the Ninth Circuit, even though it was 11 that actually dissented on paper. But of those 11, they all wrote dissents. And one of the judges who wrote a dissent, named Kim Wardlaw, stated that 24 years of flawed proceedings in my case was like not having no proceedings at all. In other words, I had no due process. None. I was rubber-stamped through the system. So I mean, every one of those 11 judges that dissented, each spoke their piece. And all I'm asking for is what they said they would give me when they put it on paper all those centuries ago. Due process. A trial free of governmental interference. That's what they said on paper all those centuries ago that we could have, in the Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independence, or one of them pieces of paper that they wrote it on, in the Constitution. Where is mine? All these politicians talking about the Constitution, and they stand for the Constitution; well, damn it, stand for it! And stop pushing me and trying to murder me without giving me what I got a right to have, that's written in the Constitution. But then again, like you said, I'm just fighting for my life; I'm just a poor black man speaking out, out of frustration.
RS: I beg, urge and beg people to read the documentation. We're not just, you know, it's not just Kevin Cooper saying this. He's got great lawyers, and now on a pro bono basis he's got a guy who was deputy head of the FBI in Los Angeles, has worked on this case for eight years. Tell me about your lawyer, though. He's been -- right? -- with you for a long time.
KC: Norman [Hile] has been with me for a long time.
RS: Norm --
KC: Pro bono. And he is a good man. And he could have been retired from work a long time ago, but he said no, he wasn't going to retire until he got me out. He's committed to getting me out. And I am very thankful for that. And I have a lot of respect for him, a lot of appreciation for what this man is doing.
RS: I should point out, no one less than the Pope has spoken out for a new hearing for you and on your [behalf]. Twelve appellate judges, half the jurors who convicted you, and you know, international human rights organizations, law school deans, innocence projects and everyone. So you got a lot of support. But at the end of the day, most people, it's out of sight, out of mind. And what we're trying to do, what I'm trying to do with this interview, is put you in sight. I have a connection with you as an editor, and I know you're a great writer, and how clear you are; you should talk about the books that have influenced you. You're also a --
[Recorded voice on telephone] You have 60 seconds remaining.
RS: -- a very strong, a very compelling painter. So you've found avenues for expressing yourself. We only, the announcement said we only have 60 seconds, and that was about 20 seconds ago; I don't know if that means I'm going to lose you now, Kevin, but I'll try to get back to you."
KC: Let me hang up and call back, I've got about six minutes.
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