Hopefully we will see the light.

The problem I have with the illegal aliens is that they came here illegally.  The broke the law in the manner in which they came to this country.

 For that, I say sentd them back to their home country.  If they want to come here, let them follow the laws that are in place.

If they are here illegally, they should receive no government services.  If an employer hires them, knowing they are illegal, or "willfully not knowing" they are illegal, that employer should be punished for hiring the illegals.  It is the jobs that brings the illegals here.  Also, the employers usually exploit the illdgal status.  This results in low wages, no enefits, and worst of all, the loss of job oppertuinities for American citizens and LEGAL aliens.

 The present situation cannot be allowed to continue.  

The last I herd, in order to become a citizen, a person needed to speak english.  Has this changed? 

by kanawah (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 53 comments) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 9:22:24 AM
 

The author extolled the virtues

of researching ones position prior to forming it. In the face of your hyperbolic and somewhat borderline hatred of all non english speaking folks it would seem rather fitting that you seek to find out the causes of this flood of illegals coming here, the deficiencies of a quota system and incompetences that make applying and waiting not an option for those whose children are starving.

You do not seem to care that trans national agribusiness can sell produce in Mexico City far cheaper than can the Mexican farmer, that the economies of places like Guatemala, another point of origin of these illegals flooding here, and many other nations as well are in ruins due to American foreign policies and the corruption of American installed governments.

Neither do you seem aware of, or compassionate about, the fact that it is American businesses that are hiring these folks and that they are violating the laws by doing so but are being protected by our own government. It so happens that I have worked for and with many groups seeking to assist these workers with their legal rights of protection from the horrific working conditions and theft of their wages common to this situation. I have sought to combat the stupidities posted here regarding the overburdened health care system or educatory system due to these folks ( a complete myth) and to shed a bit of the light of truth where folks like you spread lies and distortions virtually guarranteeing that the debate breaks down into worthless nonsense.

These people are not the villains of this piece, you are more so than are they as you will not do the necesary research into the subject, simpler by far to accept the crap shoved up your rectum by the Limbaugh's and O'Reilly's of this world. How one calls evil a man who is desperate to feed his family, who lives and works in awful conditions just to send a couple of hundred dollars home to his children each month, and who affects no working American either is simply beyond me......

Did they come here illegally, of course they did, twleve million or so of them in fact. That is the only thing you get right. Who brought them here with the lure of jobs? Who keeps them coming here with policies that bankrupt their own nations and make it impossible for them to avoid this situation? Folks like you who live in ignorance thats who!

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2388 comments) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 10:24:37 AM
 

kanawah, did you

even read the article?

Thanks, Ardee.  

Michael Bonanno

by Michael Bonanno (70 articles, 16 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 122 comments) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 12:59:41 PM
 

straw man

The vast majority of people who are concerned about the way America has lost control of its borders are fully aware that the rich are profiting from illegal immigration. There may be a few people here and there who have not yet made the connection, but by and large Bonnano is attacking a straw man here.

He also makes the usual accusation of "racism," the all-purpose smear that progressives use whenever they're trying to draw attention away from the fact that they don't have much of a case.

Tell me, why shouldn't whites object when the United States is being flooded with third worlders? Why in the world are whites supposed to be complacent being crowded out of our homelands not only in North America but Europe as well? What possible benefit can we derive from losing our status as the dominant majority?

Those are questiions the progressives can't answer rationally, so they substitute invective and character assassination for reasoned debate.

by gullywumpus (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 4:22:08 PM
 

straw man

The vast majority of people who are concerned about the way America has lost control of its borders are fully aware that the rich are profiting from illegal immigration. There may be a few people here and there who have not yet made the connection, but by and large Bonnano is attacking a straw man here.

He also makes the usual accusation of "racism," the all-purpose smear that progressives use whenever they're trying to draw attention away from the fact that they don't have much of a case.

Tell me, why shouldn't whites object when the United States is being flooded with third worlders? Why in the world are whites supposed to be complacent being crowded out of our homelands not only in North America but Europe as well? What possible benefit can we derive from losing our status as the dominant majority?

Those are questiions the progressives can't answer rationally, so they substitute invective and character assassination for reasoned debate.

by gullywumpus (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 4:33:53 PM
 

"brown"?

I find it interesting that we continually hear about non-Europeans being referred to as black or brown. Here, it's "white" people discriminating against "brown" immigrants, or "brown" Iraqis being invaded by "white" Americans.

I often have heard the problems in Israel/ Palestine, as well, being referred to as "people of color" being occupied by "white" people. The insinuation is that European people belong to a distinctive "race", that all people of European descent have the same skin color, or worse yet, that all of the people on earth can be casually thrown into a "color" category.

While I do not deny that some deluded people of European descent frequently refer to themselves as "white", using such terminology merely lends credence to this peculiar, unscientific notion.

When I lived in NY, and worked in a restaurant (restaurant workers in NY often make about 2 dollars an hour "off the books", whether they are citizens or not), my Mexican co-workers' skin color was exactly the same as my mother's- normally referred to as "olive skin". My Mother is of German, Swiss and possibly Jewish descent. So my mother is "white" and my Mexican co-workers are "brown"? How absurd!

It's not about "brown" or white". I've been to the Middle East, and many of those people are the same color, or one shade darker than myself. The Israelis and Palestinians I met were the same skin color, with the exception of the Ethiopian Jews, who were a bit darker. Meanwhile, American soldiers (of all skin tones) are being killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and no one is asking them what "color" they are as they die- to the Iraqis, Al Quaida, etc., they are all simply "Americans".

Similarly, you will find all sorts of shades of ivory, beige or brown in Africa. Why not call an African person African, or a European person European?

On a scientific basis, all humans are of African origin. Recent research in genetics has proven that all people in Europe stem from only seven individuals, and that Europe, far from being hommogenised, has been repeatedly invaded by, and intermingled with, Asian and African peoples. None of us belong to any "race", other than the human race.

On a political basis, the Mexicans lived in California before the Europeans arrived; therefore, it is the Europeans who have "invaded" the Americas, not the Mexicans.

By casting everything in "racial" terms, the true issues are often obscured. All human beings deserve a fair wage. Not all of those who are angry about losing their jobs and culture are reacting based purely on race; many are concerned about the eroding quality of life.

The corporations, as you rightly mention, are giving low-paying jobs to foreigners because they are willing to work for substandard wages. Poor Americans, regardless of color or national origin, are mere pawns in the monopoly of the very rich.

However, the Republocrats and Demmicans persist in using racism, or reaction to it, as a "divide and conquor" strategy. Don't kid yourself- the corporations have donated ghastly sums of money to both parties, thus ensuring that while the terminology being used may change, the policies themselves will always play out thhe dictates of the best interests of the very rich. While Republicans want to decrease wages so America can be "competitive", Democrats want us to march in the street to "support immigrants" and decry "racism", all the while allowing the new immigrants, legal or not, to work for substandard wages and cost out society millions of dollars in education, health and social welfare costs.

In some cities, it is now impossible to get a good job without knowledge of Spanish. It may not be politically correct to say so, but there is an increase in such "reverse racism" in many areas, meaning that poor "white" people cannot find work. (Of course, the rich elite, regardless of "color", don't care about this- it's the "bottom line" that matters.)

Meanwhile, African Americans, long deprived of work due to racism, are seeing factory or manufacturing jobs going to immigrants, legal or illegal.

When we object to losing our standard of living, quality of education, or jobs, the "left" calls us racists. "You must be some kind of racist. You must be against 'brown people'", they say, as they send our jobs elsewhere. (Remember NAFTA, signed into law by Clinton?) The typical response of the "white" liberal, is, then, of guilt. So we hold our tongues, allowing the society to disintegrate before our eyes.

What we need is a sensible immigration policy, one based on sustainable growth and living wages, not based on emotional ranting, or name-calling. The people at the very top are using "redneck" whites and "liberal" types to get what they want. They have set up a Hegelian dialectic- with right wing racists on one side of the divide, shouting "Send 'em all where they came from!", and "liberals" on the left, shouting, "immigrant's rights!", and waving a driver's licence, credit card and green card. Who loses? We all lose, both immigrant and native-born; we see a "race to the bottom" regarding wages, health insurance and education.

Let's not use these disparaging, unscientific words to warp reality. Just because the racists call people "white", "brown" or "black" doesn't mean that we should. We are all humans. When Dr. King was assasinated, he was working on what could have been his greatest project, one that would have changed the face of America forever. He wanted to bring together poor rural "white" people, immigrants and African Americans, to form a united movement for social justice and equality. Let's honor Dr. King and continue the work he began.

by T. M. Elkins (4 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Sunday, November 25, 2007 at 8:14:10 AM
 

Thank you Jasper

for a well reasoned opposition to the ravings (sorry) of this gullywumpus person. When one beaks down a complex issue to the amount of melanin in someones skin then the opinions and conclusions that follow are not only worthless but actually make solutions more difficult.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2388 comments) on Sunday, November 25, 2007 at 9:46:46 AM
 

I usually like to

post my article and see what responses I get.  I allow the debate to happen without joining.

I do this for two reasons.

First, I had my say and now it’s time for those who agree or disagree to speak (write).

Secondly, I learn.  Just because I write an opinion piece doesn’t mean that I can’t read the debate and have an epiphany triggered by the debate.  If I thought that my word was the last word on the subject, I’d be a Republican.

However, I had to respond to kanawah.  That person made the argument to which my article was a response.  If I was to respond to him/her in full, I’d merely rewrite my article.

Jasper, yours was a well thought out response to which I feel obliged to give an answer.

I use the terms “black”, “white”, “brown”, etc. based upon the perception of many of those who are fighting illegal immigration.  This is something that should be obvious to the most casual of observers.

I believe that it’s serendipitous that those who are taking American jobs, generally speaking, look different than the descendants of the Western Europeans who originally stole this land from the “red” man (honestly, I’ve really never seen a bright red human being).

Our jobs are being sent to China, our ole pals in Vietnam, South Korea, Malaysia and other Asian nations.  The people in those countries do not look like those Western Europeans mentioned above.  Yet, we have many people of Asian descent walking the streets of The FUSA.

My ancestry is Sicilian.  My skin is what you refer to as olive.  However, most people look at me and consider me White and rightly so.  I am Caucasian. 

One more thing about color, then I’ll speak to another point you made.

We have a very conservative friend who moved here from Sri Lanka.  I don’t doubt that he is mistaken for African American on many occasions.  Yet, as dark as he is, he still claims that Black people don’t mind living from the pittance given to them via our welfare system, which affords them sub standard housing.  I said in my original article that this happened in the ‘60s, and it did happen big time in the ‘60s.  However, it’s 2007 and a man who, himself, can be mistaken for African American, is helping to keep that lie alive in 2007.

Let’s face it.  African Americans are much, much more part of this country than most Caucasians.  The “took up residence” here with the first Western Europeans.  They didn’t move here in order to make a better life, either.  They’re Black, which made them 3/5 of a human being in the eyes of many of the Western Europeans alive at the time, as mentioned.  It was OK to hang them because they’re Black.  Appearance, especially skin color, is profoundly important to many Caucasians.  That should never be denied.  And the darker the skin color, even if those with dark skin are “technically” Caucasian, the lower the class in the eyes of many Caucasians. 

Language is another part of the equation.  Many Americans, White, Brown, Black or otherwise, are intimidated by people who speak another language.  The FUSA is quite unique among other nations in this regard. 

As I wrote above, there are many descendants of Asians who can be seen walking the streets of The FUSA.  When they’re in the company of other Asian people, they sometimes speak whatever language it is that their descendents spoke.  I’ve been with people who’ve said, “Why don’t they learn how to speak English?”

My answer has always been, “Maybe they do know how to speak English.  Maybe they speak to each other in the language of their ancestors for the purpose of keeping their ancestry alive and rich, even though they realize they need to be able to speak English to carry on most business in The FUSA.”

Logically, it should not have bothered the person who complained that the Asians weren’t speaking English.  They weren’t speaking to him and they seemed to understand each other.  Yet, and I don’t think that this is the exception, it bothered the person to no end that these people were speaking to each other in a language other than English.

I asked him why it bothered him so much and he gave me what I consider a very infantile answer.  However, his answer, in my humble opinion, is also the rule rather than the exception.  He said that, when people speak to one another in a language other than English, even if it doesn’t concern him, it’s as if “they’re telling secrets to one another.”

I’m no psychologist and it would be good to get a psychologist’s take on this, but I believe the reason that conversations that take place in languages other than English bother those who don’t understand the language so much is simply because they don’t understand what’s being said.

It’s ironic that people complain that some feel that they’re entitled to state aid, etc. while overlooking the fact that they, themselves, feel they they’re entitled to force everyone to speak English under all circumstances and, in some cases, that they’re entitled to more of the riches of this land because they belong to a certain religion.  I’d say many Christians feel they should be on some sort of “inside track” because they’re Christian.  Isn’t that thinking that one has some sort of entitlement?  That's getting off track a bit and a debate for another time.  Sorry.

My father was a police officer in the ‘60s, ‘70s and part of the ‘80s.  His parents came to this country from Sicily in the '20s, I believe.  They never had to learn to speak English.  My father spoke Sicilian, as did his two brothers and three sisters.  My grandmother learned to speak some English.  My grandfather spoke English, but even more poorly than my grandmother.  He could hardly speak English.  Both my grandmother and my grandfather did not go out of their way to learn to speak English.

I bring up the fact that my father was a police officer because, somehow, my grandfather, who couldn’t read a word of English, was able to obtain a driver’s license and get a job.  I can’t swear that the two were connected and the truth is now part of the ages.

My father used to tell me that when he was a young boy and he and my grandmother went to the market, speaking Sicilian to one another while there, some proprietors would tell him to hurry up and “get himself and his guinea old lady outta here.”

I don’t believe that The FUSA has an official language.  We speak English for the most part and our business is carried on in English.  One would think that it would behoove people to learn English.

But I repeat, is it the immigrants who are dragging out the time it takes them to learn English or is it corporate America who is “catering to them”?  No “salida” on the doors and, before long, people have to learn what the word “exit” means.

In the 1970s, Larry Csonka, a very good American football player, jumped from the established National Football League to a new enterprise called the World Football League.  I was angry because the team for whom Csonka played was one of the top teams in the NFL and it upset me that there was no team loyalty (if I only knew then what I know now).

I was asked if someone offered me several million dollars more than I was presently earning, wouldn’t I quit working for my present employer and take a job with the employer offering me significantly more money?

How is that different than what the so called “illegals” are doing?  OK, it’s illegal as far as the laws of The FUSA are concerned, but possibly my father broke the law in “helping” my grandfather obtain a driver’s license.  The argument has been made that nothing is against the law if one doesn’t get caught.  I believe Nixon proceeded under that assumption and The Regime is operating under that assumption today as well.

My father/grandfather didn’t get caught, Nixon got caught, The Regime’s been caught many times over but hasn’t been punished and most illegal immigrants haven’t been caught.  It’s a matter of risk assessment.  Life’s a matter of risk assessment, is it not?

One last point.  Jasper, I’m not saying that you’re conservative, liberal or anything in between.  I think that, between my original article and this response, I’ve done enough labeling.  I hope you understand why I did it, though.  It really wasn’t coming straight from me, it’s my perception of the perception of others.

The point I’m going to make is in response to something you wrote that conservatives (there I go again) love to write in response to a Progressive.

You wrote “When we object to losing our standard of living, quality of education, or jobs, the "left" calls us racists.  "You must be some kind of racist. You must be against 'brown people'", they say, as they send our jobs elsewhere. (Remember NAFTA, signed into law by Clinton?) The typical response of the "white" liberal, is, then, of guilt. So we hold our tongues, allowing the society to disintegrate before our eyes.”

The “left” hasn’t sent our jobs anywhere.

Conservatives seem to revert to “Clinton did this” or “Clinton did that” when they run out of legitimate arguments, as if what Bill Clinton did is going to be enough to shut a Progressive up.

I believe that Bill Clinton may have been one of the more liberal Republican presidents we’ve ever had.  The same will happen when Hillary is elected, but that, also, is a debate for another time.

Please don’t assume that, by bringing up what Clinton did while president, you are bringing up a sore point for me.  Well, you are bringing up a sore point, but it has nothing to do with Republicans or, what did you call them, Demmicans.  It has to do with the fact that Clinton sold out American workers.  He helped, as Hartmann would say, “screw the middle class”.

Bill Clinton was just a little left of George W. Bush who’s just a little right of John Kerry.  Demmicans.

Japer, all in all, I think that you’re spot on with your response.  It’s well thought out and makes lots of sense.  What you write is logic and truth.  My article is reality and truth.

I think we’re on the same page.  I was just trying to, as Cosell used to say, “tell is as it is.”

Michael Bonanno

by Michael Bonanno (70 articles, 16 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 122 comments) on Sunday, November 25, 2007 at 1:09:47 PM
 

Duh...It's NAFTA and globalization, Stupid

Doesn't anyone realize that NAFTA and similar trade agreements have squeezed our neighbors south of the border into a desperate situation?  The majority of illegals are desperate and come for economic reasons because they are not able to earn a decent living at home and are offered so-called better wages in EL Norte.  What really happens is ALL workers are exploited: the Southern illegals by unsafe working conditions, no benefits and low wages compared to American workers. American workers are replaced by the low wage no benefit illegals and greedy global corporations make huge profits.  The government is run by the corporations who have no intention of derailing their gravy train, so until the public wakes up to what is really going on, nothing is going to change and exploited workers on both sides of the border will continue to compete with each other instead of uniting against their common enemy.

by memary (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 70 comments) on Sunday, November 25, 2007 at 5:03:13 PM
 

Time heals all wounds and wounds all heals

The stench of rotting reasoning is still foul no matter how you justify it.  Firstly there is no such a thing as the standard Republican, Democrat. It is and has been a matter of continuum from one extreme to the other.  From the Rabid right through a medium perspective to the loony Left. In reality either extreme is as bad , unthinking , selfish, unreasoning as the other.

Somewhere in the middle are the people in the middle that change sides and therefore change governments.Australia has just done that the margin was 5% of the voters. I can guarantee that the rabid likes of Pauline Hansen or One Nation didn’t change to the Labour Party. They remain implacable racist extremists. Not to the level of White supremacy but in that direction.

 Most surveys taken by news organizations in US have about 1000 interviews of which between 7-800 are included to represent 300million. Come on folks even with 20million Aust usually uses 1500-2000 and even then they can be wildly inaccurate. Then there’s tactics.

People no matter who they are tend stick with those they can identify with. Those they understand and feel safe with. People have and will always feel threatened by that which they don’t understand. Think of these factors and ask your self why GWB even got close to Gore in 2000? Certainly it wasn’t on record or intelligence.

The last in or the minority is always the target of discrimination. The more rigid or foreign the culture more likely the discrimination.

You may remember Azaria Chamberlain (the dingo or wild dog took her) her parents were Seventh Day Adventists a mildly fundamentalist but comparatively harmless sect (My mum is a member). Well the stories that went around about human sacrifices etc always with the tag of A friend of mine….. They suffered discrimination they were white good people….because she didn’t cry publicly!  as though that's some justification!  Ignorance, fear on the rampage without a lick of truth.

We in Australia have been in turn prejudiced against , Irish, Polish, Chinese, Jews, Pacific Islanders, Greeks Italians, Vietnamese, Indian, Lebanese, Muslims, and Sudanese….depending on the latest arrivals.

 A decade each down the track we’re into second generation mixed marriages, who cares. Our current PM’s Daughter is married to a man of Asian extraction.

My point is that in time it all finds its own level as for the rabid nothing short of eugenics will solve that absolutely.

 Mind you there needs to be some legislative help. Anti racist laws, Anti vilification and Anti Discrimination laws. "The cloth headed comment" would have gotten him charged and sued.

Of course what doesn’t help is the right wing nonsense you raised illegal and who’s responsible and what can you do about it. The argument gives the nod to the concept that it's okay to be prejudiced  against some people The moral aspects of that are as horrendous as they are hypercritical.

Some of the conclusions one could come to is:

·          That the US is only interested in exploiting other countries.

 ·           Americans wish to maintain their  excessive life styles, expelling the most green house gasses of any nation in the world

·          American don’t not give a damn if the people from those exploited countries are living in substandard situations and have to come to America so their families can eat.

·          America wants to maintain a white country.I don’t really think that this is the attitude but I do think that Objectivity isn’t as wide spread as it could be

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 532 comments) on Monday, November 26, 2007 at 1:20:09 AM