... and so what?

9/11 will become like the JFK killing, everyone knows the official story is bullshit and it still doesn't matter. You can add this perfectly good logical case onto the thousands of others that prove 9/11 was a "false flag" operation and it won't mean sh*t. Doesn't mean we shouldn't scream about it or give-up trying, but the forces that be are firmly entrenched and I see little that is going to dislodge them. Hell, we can't even get these fascist pigs on the small sh*t that they have blatantly committed, how do we expect to nail them for the murder of 3,000 people?

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 9:49:08 AM

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From the crudely forged Niger uranium documents, to the pilot's
handbook (in Arabic) conveniently found in a rental car at the airport, to the outrageously amateurish anthrax attack letters meant to implicate Arabs, to the van full of Mossad agents with traces of explosives in their vehicle (who, before they were even asked, tried telling the cops that arrested them that
"Palestinians" were behind 9/11), the whole operation smacks of a
clumsy, ham-fisted bureaucracy of arrogant, bumbling fools.

But to get to the point, "so what"? Well my hope is that there will be a tipping point somewhere, and hopefully that point will occur while there's still something left to save.

by jpsmith123 (3 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 286 comments [27 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 10:24:07 AM

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Where's the smoking gun?....I'll tell ya, it's in Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with it, and did nothing to provoke war with this country, as "W" has admitted himself. The very fact that we're in Iraq tells you that the story we were given is bogus and 911 was the springboard.    

by mike wygant (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 287 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 11:29:38 AM

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People would be more willing and less fearful of adopting the views of 911 Truth activists if they felt they were calling for forgiveness rather than retribution and punishment.

The peace movement should call for granting amnesty from prosecution and guarantee of an ample, lifetime pension to anyone who agrees to testify on their roles in the events of 9/11, extending this offer to any members of the US government, foreign governments and/or terrorist groups involved in the planning or execution of the attacks of that day.

Additionally, individuals should step forward and volunteer to spend time working with those who give testimony on crimes they have committed so that they might be reintegrated into society.

Instead of executing Nazi war criminals we should have devoted all the human resources available to us to rehabilitating them, awakening in them awareness of the nature of their actions so that they could have come to understand that they must make amends. If they had remained alive they would have been a living testament to the transformative powers of forgiveness.

Historians and psychologists especially should come out in favor of preserving invaluable study material in the form of the opportunity to converse with the authors of unfortunate historical deeds.

We must find a solution to the existing state of affairs that would be acceptable to both the accusers and the accused. It should solve the problem it sets out to solve without creating additional problems. It should present itself as an ethical means to an ethical end.

In "The Art of War", Sun Tzu said never to surround an enemy. If you do not leave him an out, he will fight to the last man.

by John Stan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 7 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 12:11:31 PM

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Of course it would be nice to see the traitorous perpetrators of 9/11 and their accomplices swinging happily from ropes around their necks, but, for right now, I'll settle for merely stopping them from perhaps ending life as we know it. I want their war agenda stopped before it can potentially become a catastrophic global conflict.

by jpsmith123 (3 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 286 comments [27 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 12:36:29 PM

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I have repeatedly stated that unil and unless we as species can evolve intellectually beyond "an eye for an eye" or "dog eat dog" mentality, this insanity will go on until we self-distruct. We know we are capable of such evolution becauce of King, Gandhi and Mandella. The question is, do we have the time.Hal O'Leary

by Halo (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 29 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 10:56:13 PM

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You're serious, aren't you?

by Moss David Posner, M.D. (7 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 43 comments) on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2007 at 4:34:56 PM

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I agree with the author's contention that when the documents are declassified the gross negligence of the Bush Administration in preventing the 9/11/01 attack will be definitively shown.

But let's not give the terrorists too much credit, either.  Statements like this, "Lastly, any group sophisticated and resourceful enough to have pulled off the 9/11 attack, would be sophisticated enough to get their message across, exactly as they wanted it to come across," drawn from the above article are misleading.

There is NO EVIDENCE that al Qaada has the sophistication and resources to manipulate the media and other governments in the manner described.

In fact they depended on the horror and sheer magnitude of the event to drive us to our knees.

We were shocked and bloodied by 9/11 and we have been ineffective in responding to it, but we are still safe, still defending our freedoms and still struggling to implement effective strategies against international Islamist terror.

Robert Chapman

Lansing, NY

by Robert Chapman (28 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 556 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 1:11:40 PM

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"There is NO EVIDENCE that al Qaada has the sophistication and resources to manipulate the media and other governments in the manner described."

First, other than specious government claims, there's really no evidence that "al Queda" (whatever that precisely is), is responsible for 9/11 in the first place; not that I'm aware of, at least. Osama bin Laden has specifically denied any involvement.

Second, I'm not talking about anyone "manipulating" anything, per se, but merely stating that any group sophisticated and resourceful enough to pull off a 9/11 type operation (i.e., being able to identify and successfully exploit vulnerabilities, e.g., financing the operation, avoiding detection, etc.), would surely be able to get a message out, had they intended to do so, without having that message be buried, adulterated, etc., by the U.S. government.

by jpsmith123 (3 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 286 comments [27 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 2:32:59 PM

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RChapman says, "There is NO EVIDENCE that al Qaada has the sophistication and resources to manipulate.... In fact they depended on the horror and sheer magnitude of the event to drive us ...."

I just don't get that people just don't get it. THERE. WAS. NO. 'al qeada' IN. ANY. PART. OF. Nine Eleven Op.

All of N.E.O. was Poppy Bush's CIA (his name is on their headquarters bldg., CIA = GWHB), and N.E.O. was done by Poppy-directed gophers Cheneypawn, and Rumsfeldpawn, and Jr.pawn. I don't get why people blindfold their eyes and dumb themselves stupid, in order to avoid seeing and knowing the obvious. No one BUT Poppy COULD have done Nine Eleven Op. AND, he invented and staffed the PNAC panel (1993) which put it in writing that he WAS GOING TO do it, (make a 'Pearl Harbor,' like the one in Dec. 1941, during Poppy's senior year in prep high school, which derailed his life on graduation, June '42, to get enlisted in the military).

No "they," Mr. Chapman. "NO EVIDENCE al Qaada has sophistication," -- HELL: NO EVIDENCE of AL QAEDA !!!! sophisticated or otherwise.

As for 'what exactly Al Qaeda' IS, it was announced right here. Al Qaeda is a computer DATA BASE of names. Period. Short for, in Arabic: "Q eidat ilmu'ti'aat, the exact translation of the English word 'database.'"

A great essay appeared this past week, scoping out the context, 1945-2007, that today's events are staged in the foreground against the backdrop of.
A river of understanding runs through it. Strongly recommended reading. "This movement, ... the harbinger of a revolution to end all revolutions ...."

by meremark (1 articles, 3 quicklinks, 30 diaries, 572 comments [22 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 4:05:44 PM

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...but are you on crack? If there is complicity or a conspiracy uncovered linking US citizens to the 9/11 attacks, then hanging is too good for the conspirators, especially if it ever came to light that DUBYA was one of them. Only by swift and sure punishment can the conspirators be dealt with, and the message can be sent that WE THE PEOPLE will not stand for such cloak and dagger bullshit that ends the lives of 3000+ innocent Americans. As far as the part about not killing Nazi war criminals, but "rehabilitating" them is the biggest load of airy-fairy bullshit I have ever read! I have always been a supporter of capitol punishment. There are people who deserve death. There are certain human failings from which there is no rehabilitation, like pedophilia. People who kill on a grand scale prove only that they are of the type of human that doesn't value life. If they don't value the lives of others, why should we value theirs? Frankly, if the conspiracy were to actually be exposed, I'd want to be there in the front row when the conspirators meet their doom! To heartlessly, recklessly, and carelessly end the lives of 3000 innocent people just to be able to kill more through the wars that will come as a result of this action is nothing less than a ticket to genocide! To sit back after such actions have been taken and speak of forgiveness is the height of being a doormat. There comes a time when forgiveness can only be given at the end of a noose, or the business end of a lethal injection needle. 9/11 is such a case. In its wake, hundreds of thousands have died, tens to hundreds of thousands have been permanently injured. If there was an American connection to it, and to my mind, there is enough evidence to prove this, then those who were involved deserve nothing less than death. While dying a thousand deaths won't bring back one soul lost on 9/11, or those lost after as a result of it, at least the message will be sent to those who would callously contemplate taking such an action ever again, if you try, you die. To err is human. To forgive is divine. I'm not divine! Send the perpetrators back to their maker and let him take care of the forgiveness part. Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 1:38:03 PM

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It was precisely because of the conviction that conspirators must always be dealt with "by swift and sure punishment" that the public as a whole quickly and without reservation agreed to the bombing of innocent camel-herders in Afghanistan before any concrete evidence of Osama Bin Laden's guilt was presented to the world. Had we let cooler, forgiving heads prevail then, we would not be in the mess we are in today.

The unwise actions of leaders we venerate today (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Churchill and many others) resulted in more deaths than those caused by Bush. Bush grew up in an atmosphere entirely devoid of familial love, in privileged, artificial surroundings in which he was never forced to take any responsibility for his actions. Quite naturally, he never grew up. He lives with the subconscious conviction that he is not worthy of love. He also lives in constant fear of being killed, either by terrorists or by those holding his leash. If you watch him on TV, he looks like a scared little boy deathly afraid of being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I personally volunteer to go hunting and fishing with him (I can't hunt or fish, so he'll have to teach me) and prove to him by my presence that he is worthy of love.

It will be much easier to put things right if we can give people guilty of crimes a means of coming clean without fearing punishment. If 911 was done with the help of elements of the US government, it will be difficult for us to win back the respect of the world and the forgiveness of those we have invaded and bombed. If we cannot forgive the perpetrators of 911, can we really expect others to forgive us?

If Christ can forgive anyone who repents regardless of the nature of their sins, who am I to pass judgement on the perpetrators of 9/11 whoever they might be?

William Blake wrote: "Christ's crucifix will be made an excuse for executing criminals."

It is the unfortunate Old Testament idea of "eye for an eye" that needs to be reexamined and rethought, as Christ called upon us to do.

by John Stan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 7 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 2:17:15 PM

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I agree that we should have taken the time to find out who was responsible before we started bombing the middle east, but once we ascertained the guilty parties, I don't think that forgiving and forgetting is the best course of action.

 Do you really think that the world would be quicker to forgive us if we say, oops, our gov't was responsible but even though we didn't extend our "Christian" forgiveness to the foreigners who we thought were guilty, we think we should extend it to our leaders.  Even though they are responsible for murdering our own citizens, getting our soldiers killed, killing nearly a million innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq, torturing countless others in illegal/secret detention centers, bankrupting the US and subverting the Constitution, executing an admitted bad dictator whom we put in power and whom we supplied the chemical weapons he used to gas his own people -- since the only way we will get them to confess is to promise them impunity, we have no choice but to let them get away with it.  After that, we will go fishing and hunting with them (hopefully only killing animals for sport -- not actually shooting anyone in the face as Cheney is wont to do) to show Bush/Cheney that they are loved because once they realize that, they will see the error of their ways and will become a good people.  I'm sure the jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, etc. that were persecuted and killed by the Nazis would have been happier to see the Nazis be rehabilitated and become members of society rather than be punished for their cruelty and inhumanity.  Because deep down, the Nazis really weren't bad people -- they just weren't loved as children and we can't hold people responsible for their actions if their mothers and fathers didn't love them enough.

 Seriously, there are people who would benefit from this kind of compassion -- people who shoplift due to need (not just the thrill of it), drug users, non-violent criminals, etc.  Using this logic, though, we should get rid of the justice system and police officers and heck, even our armed forces, because no matter what happens, we are just going to turn the other cheek.  If you get raped, no need to lock up the perp because your forgiveness will cause him to rethink his actions and give up his wicked ways.

 Justice and retribution are 2 different concepts.  Should we pursue and eye for an eye?  Probably not.  But should we hold people accountable for their actions and impose penalties that are allowed under a system of law once they have been given a chance to defend themselves against the charges?  Absolutely.  If you oppose the death penalty, fine -- but they should at least be locked up for the rest of their lives.  No parole or presidential pardon to rescue them from the consequences of their actions.

 At this point, anyone who has knowledge and doesn't come forward is complicit.  I'm sorry.  They have had plenty of time to see the damage that has been done and the danger that faces us if we don't stop these madmen.  If they don't speak up it is because they are CHOOSING not to.  Sure, they may be afraid for their own safety (but more likely their careers) -- but by keeping quiet, they are sentencing our soldiers and the civilians of these nations to death.  There really isn't much that would mitigate the criminality of their silence.

 Cutting a deal with the little fish to get the big ones may be a necessary evil -- and I'm okay with that.  But we can't just say -- let's forgive and forget this whole thing ever happened and everything will be okay.  We'll end up like the abused woman who keeps taking back her abusive husband because she knows deep down he is a really good guy and he does love her.  She just has to love him enough to change him.  It is delusional thinking and, even worse, it is suicidal thinking.

The only way to rehabilitate our world image and to regain the trust of the international community (as well as to prevent this type of thing from occurring again) is to thoroughly investigate the matter.  Prosecute those whom the evidence shows are guilty and, if convicted, impose the harshest penalties possible under the law.  Then, we need to add an in-depth study of the US Constitution and the rights and responsibilities of citizenship to our educational system so that future generations will know that they, too, must act when confronted with immoral leaders.

by Scarlett (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 4:12:02 PM

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Finally we are getting at the core stuff.  Yeah, for now its talk, but all radical actin must be preceeded by talk and it's astrounding that America has finally grown the cojones to talk about the "real world" 9/11 openly.  Such converstaions would have been impossible even a year or two ago. 

YES, 9/11 was almost certainly not only incompently "allowed" by the neocon Bushivicks, but actively engineered.  And what's the story about that van full of Mossad agents with traces of explosives in their vehicle.  Hey this isn't a can of worms, it's a can full of treasonous devils. 

9/11 is all of a piece of the Middle East cancer and million of Americans bloodly well KNOW it.  The next step is to get enough proof that this neo Nazi (and Middle Eastern grounded) coup d'etat will short circuit into oblivion.

by W. Christopher Epler (Bill) (291 articles, 59 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 763 comments [44 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 5:07:33 PM

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"IF" - and that's a BIG if - the perpetrators of 9/11 are every brought to justice, as much I'd like to have them die, I would let them rot in a cell till they died. Far worse punishment. Once powerful people reduced to nothing.

But, again, yes more and more are asking and finding out that those of us who have been howling at the 9/11 moon were not crazy.

So what? Millions and millions of us said stop the war. Is the war stopped? We could eliminate OPEC imports by raising our MPG to 45 - has it even been suggested? We could but not for a small group of ruthless, soulless people that have all the weapons, near all the courts and justice system and control most of the message machine.

It's called "being in a pickle". I don't know where that expression came from but it means the same thing as, "up sh*t Creek without a paddle", and so on.

Here's my take - if it looks like 9/11 might actually be investigated for real, the same powers that be will start pushing all the buttons in a "f*ck'em, if we go everybody goes" scorched Earth to end all parties orgy of destruction that will be the self fulfilling prophesy these nut-cases have been having a wet-dream for.

So I don't think we'll ever see that punishment stage.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 at 10:07:43 PM

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...don't make the ill founded assumption that I am in any way a christian. I am not! I used to be a Roman Catholic, but I gave it up for lent when I was eighteen, and haven't gone back since. Even when I was a catholic, I never bought that whole "turn the other cheek" mentality. That kind of thinking keeps people in the doormat role way too long! Secondly, I can't believe you are serious in making some of the statements you make here. Forgive and forget is all well and good when you caught your kid pissing in the potted plants. Forgive and forget is fine when little Mary Sunshine breaks out the clippers and tries her hand at sculpting the cat to look like a poodle. Forgive and forget is just the thing when the sixteen year old wraps the Nissan around a phone pole and jacks your family's insurance rates through the roof! When it comes to out and out treason, forgive and forget is a fat load of bullshit! If there is, in fact, a true connection between American citizens and 9/11, then that's treason. Treason is the ONLY crime that appears in the Constitution. The punishment for that crime is clear: death! If you think that providing a general atmosphere of amnesty is going to root out the traitors, once again, you are in airy-fairy land. Oh sure, someone like you might be willing to accept the actions of these criminals. However, there would be many more who, like me, don't believe there is such a thing as forgiveness for mass murder. Some of those people, unlike me, do own weapons, and wouldn't think twice about putting an American traitor on the business end of said weapon. If it ever comes to light that there was a conspiracy by Americans to murder other Americans on 9/11, I will definitely be raising my voice for the blood of those people! A message has to be sent: do the crime, do the time. If that time means a date with a needle and poison, so the f*ck be it! Punishment is as much to prevent others from doing the same thing as the one being punished. That is why I have called for the impeachment of DUBYA on so many occasions. I don't care if he's a Republican, a Democrat, or a Whig. He's a criminal first and foremost. If his criminal actions go unpunished, the next president won't hesitate to pull some of the same sh*t he did! I wish we lived in the Utopian idealist society of which you speak. I wish that a good stern talking to would put certain people to right. However, life isn't like that. Sometimes the only way to get a mule's attention is to whack it between the eyes with a two-by-four. Oh, and as far as analyzing why DUBYA is such a f*ck, who cares? He's an asshole! What more needs to be said? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why he's such a sh*t-eating freak. Frankly, I don't care. He needs to be put on the unemployment line, just like he's done to so many others, including yours truly. He made his choices, and the country and the rest of the world continue to pay the price. It's about time that he started paying the price for his own stupidity. Frankly, I think all of America is tired of paying his bills. He lives way to extravagantly for my tastes, that's for sure!!!! Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 at 12:58:18 AM

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A declaration of willingness to forgive would force the government's hand. If it were to arrest or make attempts to discredit someone calling for 911 truth plus forgiveness, that would be a tacit acknowledgement by the government of its complicity in the 9/11 attacks. Imagine the impact of footage on YouTube of police arresting demonstrators carrying signs reading: "I forgive you George Bush for 9/11". Perhaps even the passively complicit mainstream media could be convinced to show someone carrying a sign calling for amnesty for the perpetrators of 9/11.

Highly visible celebrities and other influential people might be persuaded to come forth with accusations related to 9/11 if they were to adopt the idea that they can place an emphasis on moving beyond anger, avoiding an escalation in the cycle of violence and retribution and into discussions of how a post-911 Truth world should look, how amends are to be made, Constitutional democracy strengthened, international cultural exchanges broadened, etc.

When people call for executing members of the US government, however, such statements can easily be interpreted as a call for the violent overthrow of the government, inviting unwanted visits by the FBI or Secret Service and discrediting the 911Truth/Peace movement. Keep in mind that even if elements of the US government were complicit in 9/11, Bush may well not have been. He may have been informed of the plot after the fact (thus his stupor after being informed at the school on September 11) and forced to play along under the threat of assassination. He is too simple-minded to participate in devising or carrying out such a coordinated attack.

It is not necessary to be a Christian to appreciate the wisdom of the parable of the Woman Taken in Adultery:

"The story of the Woman Taken in Adultery in John 7:53-8:11 refers to a trap. The trap is this: under the Roman occupation, the power of capital punishment was reserved by the Romans for themselves. All capital cases had to be referred to the Roman authorities and the sentence had to be approved before it could be carried out. So Jesus' enemies figured they could trap Him in a dilemma by presenting Him with a clear-cut case where the Jewish Law demanded the death penalty by public stoning. If Jesus deferred to the Romans, He discredited Himself as a Teacher of the Law. If He condoned the stoning, the Romans would consider Him an insurrectionist and put Him to death. Either way, they thought, He couldn't win. He would either lose His credibility or His life; either way, He would be silenced." (source: www.kencollins.com/disc-07.htm)

Jesus knew that each man standing with stone in hand was reluctant to throw the stone as each had knowledge of his own imperfections. Jesus knew that each would be afraid not to throw his stones if the others did for fear of retribution for refusing to bloody his hands. Jesus also knew that no one would cast the first stone as to do so would be a tacit declaration of his own moral purity which would mean a life of constant scrutiny by his neighbors as he would thereafter be held to an impossibly high moral standard.

Jesus created a solution which did not violate any law, which spared his own life and that of the woman, and which awakened all those present, and those who would come to know of his words, to the realization that the capacity not to judge others allows solutions to be found which satisfy all parties involved.

Similarly, members of the 911 Truth movement should look for a solution which satisfies all interested persons.

If we consider ourselves morally superior to the government, we should propose actions and attitudes that are more humanitarian with respect to them than their actions have been with respect to us.

The words of Christians who consider themselves morally superior to Muslims ring hollow when they collectively punish all Muslims for the actions of a few.

I strongly suspect that the white apartheid government in South Africa did not agree to fair elections until assured that they would not be executed or imprisoned by the black majority government when it came to power.

Finally, these ideas do not depend on the media for their dissemination. If you can convince six friends of the merit of these ideas and get them to tell six of their own friends tomorrow, each of whom tells six of their friends the next day, and so on, then the ideas will reach every person in the world in two weeks by word of mouth alone (do the math).

by John Stan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 7 comments) on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 at 10:42:34 AM

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...by the FBI or any other investigative branch of the government. I guess I can revel in the idea that to them, I am nothing more than a source of hot air on a blog site. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not on their list(s) or wouldn't fall victim to the Military Commissions Act or the (un)Patriot(ic) Act if somehow my words were interpreted as a call for a coup d'etat, whether bloody or bloodless. Not that I think such a thing would be any worse than the stupidity that wells up in Washington DC. But that's beside the point. The point remains there are two worlds, the ideal world, and the world that is. Your airy-fairy world of forgive and forget doesn't exist. Further, in the case being discussed here, the possibility that 9/11 was an inside job, it should not exist. If we are to start forgiving criminals out of hand, anarchy will rule even more than it does. Society has the right and duty to punish its members who cannot abide my the rules. If part of not abiding by those rules means they must be incarcerated for the remainder of their lives, or must die by the sword by which they lived, that is their choice. On some level, all criminals commit their crimes with some measure of knowledge of the consequences thereof. The only possible exception is those who commit their crimes due to mental instability or complete insanity. Even then, there may be, on some level, knowledge of right and wrong. However, in the case of the mentally incompetent, I am willing to make exception. I have known a few crazy folks who truly were, in the deepest throes of their insanity, incapable of knowing day from night, much less right from wrong. Be that as it may, society has the right and duty to punish those who go against the rules. Not only that, it is our moral responsibility to punish wrongdoers. To think of anything less is to truly open the door to anarchy. And as far as your "savior" goes, even he metered out his own brand of justice! His actions in expelling the moneychangers from the temple not only showed he had a violent side, those same actions also sealed his fate. Of course, he was playing a rigged game with a stacked deck, and someone over his shoulder peeking at his cards if one is to analyze his story devoid of the "holy" aspects. His fate was sealed from the day of his bastard birth. Once again, that is so if one buys into the historically inaccurate and conflicted book that's the basis for your religion. I don't! There is far too much evidence to show that the bible isn't historical or factual. It is merely a bunch of oral tradition that got written down, then edited by legions of homophobic (and homosexual) scribes, editors, priests, and kings. If you want to believe in the christian Utopia, that's your affair. This is a free country (although even that is debatable), and you are as welcome to your opinion as I am to mine. Just don't sit there thinking your world of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows with the Rabbi Christ is going to come to pass. There is the real world, and there is the world of illusion (or delusion as the case may be). Frankly, if you can glibly sit there and think that an air of amnesty would bring the traitors out of hiding, or that there would be an air of amnesty in the first place, you are either hooked on your illusions, or stuck in a delusion. In either case, your Utopia doesn't exist now, and is unlikely to ever come to pass. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the life we have. You can accept the real world as it is, or live as an ostrich with your head buried in the sand. Wishing your Utopia into being won't make it so. Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 at 12:22:22 PM

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...and your point is? Everything you said is true; and I've maintained that very position for years. Why do you come short of inferring the guilty party (or parties?) Surely you must see where your argument is going.

by Moss David Posner, M.D. (7 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 43 comments) on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2007 at 4:31:17 PM

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