It looks increasingly like a Democratic landslide in the House and a slim possibility for a squeeker in the Senate. With a majority in both Houses the Democrats can then prove or disprove my belief that they are useless and as corrupt as are the Republicans. But regardless of which party triumphs in the election, regardless of whether or not we the people have the government we deserve, those who preach running away from this fight are not my friends and allies. I would seriously consider this author to be working for the neocons, after all what better way to ensure their continuation of power than to suggest that they leave the country?

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2377 comments) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 7:28:30 AM

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Ardee, you remind me of the people who ran the Reich Representation of German Jews. They urged the Jews to stay in Germany. Their newspapers kept telling people that no one could take their homeland away from them. When they finally woke up to what was happening, it was almost impossible to get out of Germany. And the people who had listened to them were trapped. I don't question that you're well-meaning the way you attack my motives. It's just that what you may think is right for you may be a death sentence for others.

by Ezekiel (16 articles, 12 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 7:45:35 AM

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Do you love your country? What would this nation be like if George Washington, Thomas Paine, et al had simply fled to Canada? What you suggest is anathema to me precisely because I am proud of what my nation really stands for and because, when things get a little dicey I work to make them better instead of crying wolf and running off. I really believe that you play directly into the hands of the neocons usurping our freedoms. What I do not know is whether or not you do so as an ally of theirs or because you are just a coward.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2377 comments) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 7:00:30 AM

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...extend to these as well? 1) the Pilgrims, who left first England and then Holland, because of persecution 2) Albert Einstein, Thomas Mann and Bertolt Brecht who left Germany soon after Hitler was named Chancellor 3) Margaret Sanger, who left the U. S. for England to avoid prosecution for disseminating information about contraception 4) the artist Marc Chagall who left first the Soviet Union and then France when it was overrun by the Nazis. What seems hard for you to admit, Ardee, is that the piece of real estate to which you have such allegiance can no longer lay any claim to being a beacon of freedom, but has instead been transformed into a Monster that threatens to devour its own people.

by Ezekiel (16 articles, 12 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 7:34:33 AM

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I have no dislike of emigres, none whatsoever. But since you bring it up lets talk about the duck; the old saw, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers and flat feet then its probably a duck. Your absurd notion that "they" will be coming for us whilst we sleep is just unsupportable. In a few weeks the Democrats will be in control of the House, and possibly the Senate as well. That should end this speculation about concentration camps. Zeke old buddy this aint Germany in the twenties and thirties, here we have along (230 years or so) history of individual freedom and democracy. So your scenario is so much froth and bubbles. Back to the duck....I thought about who would gain most from a potential ( if very unlikely) exodus of democrats and leftists from this nations shores and the answer quickly came to me, the right of course. If we see a diminishment of folks on the left then obviously the power of the right grows. Now you very well might be the reincarnation of Mother Teresa, so concerned with the well being of the left here that you cannot sleep nights worrying that they might be endangered, you might indeed. Or you might have hatched this silly scenario in some fevered hope of convincing enough leftists to run away thus empowering the neoconservative movement, seems silly, but so does your entire premise frankly. The point is moot as you aint gonna see it anyway. I do not know with any certainty what exactly are your motives here with your continual one note samba, run, run, run, run,run away..... I think on the Reverend Doctor King and his evolution. Once, as a young man, seeing the terrible racism against black Americans, he must have considered moving his family to a better place. Instead he dedicated his life to chnaging that which he simply could not tolerate and this nation is a far, far better place for his having done so. You might want to try standing up for our country, it does make one feel so good.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2377 comments) on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 at 7:22:35 AM

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You know, I have thought many times about how I will handle my life if the most dire prognostications of the more left-leaning among us are, in fact, proved right. I will probably stay right here. I'll do this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I really don't have the means at my disposal to get the hell out of Dodge...err, Dallas. Secondly, even if I did, I'd feel too much like a p*ssy by running away. While I could continue to write about the American situation as an expatriot, somehow, I'd feel like I am as much of a hypocrite as those whom I hold in such deep contempt. Perhaps this is too simplistic. Perhaps I am signing my death warrant by making the choice to stick it out here in the land of my birth. Perhaps I should listen to the small voice inside that tells me no matter who is in office, the barrel is too rotten and any new, shiny apples placed in said barrel will rot in short order. Perhaps I should just give in to the nihilistic negativism purported in the original article. But I can't do any of those things. The great mistake of the hippie movement of the sixties was the belief that you could change the system from the outside in. While many of their ideals were quite noble, and might have been the panacea for the ills of this country, the fact that they remained on the outside looking in meant they never got to a place where anything in which they believed ever really got more than an annoyed audience, UNTIL... They came into power and worked from within the system. Let's not forget that many of those in power now were at one time, flower children. This proves two things. Firstly, power is both intoxicating and corrupting, no matter who wields it. Secondly, it is much easier to change the system from the inside out than from the outside in. If I stick around, maybe, just maybe, there will be a way for me to get inside, and perhaps I can affect changes in my own special way. Of course, I could also wind up in a cold, dreary, escape-proof, fetid prison cell. Either way, I just don't know that I could feel right in running away. And besides all that, where would I run? Canada? While the fact that Canada recognizes gay marriage would go far in making the process of gaining citizenship much easier, it's too far north. This means it gets too cold and stays that way for too many months out of the year for my tastes. Yes, it's pretty up there, and you have four discernable seasons, but I just can't see myself singing "Oh Canada." Australia? I suppose given my "drothers", I'd love to live there. However, I'd have to be able to support myself. I'd have to be able to become a citizen. I'd have to be able to get there in the first place. Since at the present moment, even a long anticipated and promised trip to Austin is out of the question, what makes me think I can wing my way around the other side of the planet? Mexico? Not on your life! People are falling over themselves to get out of that hell hole. Why on earth would I consider going against the migrational flow? Besides that, I'd have to learn a new language, and learn how enjoy the thrill of Montezuma's Revenge. Nope, that ain't happening. So, you could say I am pretty much screwed. I suppose if it came down to it, and the prophets of doom are correct, and some sudden stroke of luck allowed me to flee, I'd head to the Great White North. However, I can't see it getting to that point. Of course, I didn't see DUBYA getting "elected" in 2004 either. Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 12:58:23 PM

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and could put things as succinctly and with as much impartiality as do you, but, alas, my patriotism and my outrage at what is being donme tothis nation overwhelms me. I strongly suspect the motives of this Ezekial person, very strongly in fact.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2377 comments) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 7:03:05 AM

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I wish I had your gift and could put things as succinctly and with as much impartiality as do you, but, alas, my patriotism and my outrage at what is being [done] [to this] nation overwhelms me. First, you assume that my literacy is a gift. No, my friend, it is not a gift. What I have to offer vis a vis my ability to put words together is the result of many years of education, and self-application. I could have chosen the path of so many of my classmates to simply f*ck off and waste my talents. Fortunately, I didn't take this simplistic time wasting, life wasting tack. I read! I wrote! I practiced! I taught myself to touch type without the benefit of classes, or Mavis Beacon software. When one runs a computer BBS, and has to do live chat with users, one has to learn how to type well, quickly, and accurately. As to my ability to write succinctly, I am sure that there are some who would argue that I am anything but succinct. Even I sometimes wish I could write in a more efficient and verbally compact fashion. However, the way I write is a direct reflection of the way I think, and my thinking is accurate, but rarely succinct. As to my ability to see all sides of an issue, that's because I have lived long enough, and had enough crow forced down my throat to realize that sometimes my first intuition might just be wrong. I know to a man that my thoughts are as imperfect as the thoughts of any other hairless ape that walks the face of this tired planet. Therefore, I try to see life from the eyes of others. Oh sure, there are times even I am left scratching my head by some of what I hear, see, and read, but I always try to see how someone else might see life. You can gain all of these things, but they require you to do some things I am not so sure you want to do. The most important thing to do is to not let your emotions overrun your head. In many of your postings, I see you do that as clearly as I see the keyboard in front of me. When you are that wrapped up in your emotional investment with being "right", you cannot see clearly. It logically follows that you also need to stop letting your pre-conceived notions and errant definitions of life stop overruling your intellect. You have made two incredible logical fallacies in your response to me. You said, "my patriotism and my outrage at what is being [done] [to this] nation overwhelms me." In making this statement, you have made two erroneous assumptions. First, you assumed that I am not patriotic. Second, you assumed that I am not in a state of outrage. I must say though that the most damning thing you have done is to allow false emotional states to "overwhelm" yourself. While your emotions may seem fully justified, are they worth losing objectivity? I think not. I am incredibly patriotic, but I suppose you could say I am "old school" patriotic. Where at one time, patriotism was about protecting the country from the evils within and without, now it's about bullshit flag-waving and singing songs about Eagles flying, like the tone-deaf (and legalality blind) John Ashcroft. That is not patriotism. That is nationalism. There is a big difference. Patriotism implies (to me anyway) concern with principles upon which a country was founded, and insuring those principles remain uncorrupted. Nationalism is a blind praising of a country without regard to principles, or whether or not there are any principles left unspoiled. In the case of the US, there aren't. I cannot and will not be a nationalist. There is a difference between the land on which I dwell, and the idiots who think they control said land. A nationalist remains loyal to their country whether or not their country remains loyal to it's principles (or the nationalist in question for that matter). A patriot remains loyal to the principles, and rails against those who would usurp said principles (both foreign and domestic usurpers). There is a difference, and it's a big one. Secondly, I am outraged! I don't see how you can read my articles and commentary and think I am anything but outraged. I have dropped the "F" bomb on more than one occasion. I have gone off on lengthy and vitriolic rants (like this one seems to be becoming). I have been hyper-critical of both the DUBYA administration and congress (both houses). I have slammed the sh*t out of people in my commentary. All of these things should be proof positive that I am less than amused about the government under which we currently suffer. It is only by the good graces of my roommate that I am not out on the streets. It is only by sheer luck that I am not six feet under, or residing in an urn in the form of ash. My life, my liberty, and my ability to pursue happiness have been stolen from me, and I am f*cking pissed off because of it! If you think I am happy, you are sadly mistaken. Now, the most damning and damaging thing you can do to yourself is allow yourself to be caught up in these emotially drenched logical fallacies. I get very distressed, but I realize that if I maintain the emotional overload, I can't think properly. I have to take time to cool my jets. No, I don't count to ten, but I do take at least one minute to center myself. If you read my comments, you can tell where I take the time to center, and where I don't. I'm not perfect, but I know if I want to appear cogent and detached, I need to be cogent and detached. In the grand scheme of things, you do yourself a great disservice by not allowing yourself the luxury of detachment. You wind up making false assumptions. You wind up saying what you don't want to say. You wind up looking stuffy and arrogant, and I am sure that's not what you want. I strongly suspect the motives of this Ezekial person, very strongly in fact. Suspect his motives? How? Why? What is it you suspect? I have read many of his postings, and while I sometimes get the feeling that he's a one-trick pony, I do not doubt for one second that his motives are pure and proper. What would he have to gain by a mass exodus from the shores of this country? Nothing! He's living outside the US. He's not here! Whether or not we leave in droves means nothing to him, as it should. He's in a much safer spot than you, or I, or anyone else who rails against the DUBYA machine. I see in his words a genuine concern for we who continue to live from sea to shining sea. I see him honestly worried for the well being of those of us who could be defined as "enemy combatants." While he could be blowing a bunch of smoke up our collective asses, one has to sit back and see what he would gain in doing this. NOTHING! He would not gain a thing by bullshitting us. So why fret over it? He's in a much safer place than I. Given that truth, he could just as easily blow raspberries over the ocean in our direction, and taunt us mercilessly. He's in a safe spot. He has nothing to lose if he were to stick his tongue out at us from thousands of miles away. Yet he doesn't do this. So the question remains, what do you suspect? Perhaps, a better question is what do you fear? Do you fear he might be right, and you might be wrong? Do you fear for your life, liberty, and ability to pursue happiness as I do? Do you fear leaving these shores and going somewhere where you would be the foreigner? I am willing to bet that if you get honest, at least one of these fears is the root of your suspicion. Please note, I am not saying this to slam you into the dirt. While we have disagreed in the past, trust me, if I can be civil to Sbaker, a person who more or less called me a liar, I can be civil to you as well. You said, "I wish I had your gift." I am now sharing with you how I came to have that "gift". If you want what I have, you must do what I do. There is no other way. I wish there was. Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 1:54:32 PM

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to respond.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2377 comments) on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 at 7:27:13 AM

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Actually I appreciate the technical information from Ezekiel. If such information was available to me many years ago when I had to run away from my former country that would be very valuable. So, any information is good. The referral to the Jews in Hitler's Reich is no good: a lot happened then and every tragedy was individual; so to use those to fortify the call for leaving the US now (and who has to leave- all honest people, all liberal people, all Moslems, all atheists, all ... whatever?) is borderline on the fear blackmail. I could tell Ezekiel something very unpleasant about the place of his choice but it would be cruel- he is already there and I wish him the best. But I want him to wish us the best too if I may. So, where am I? I said before and I am saying now that considering the individual decision the option of leaving must be open and any honest information on the way to do that is very valuable. But that is all. Motives and perceptions are individual and let's not touch the dead too much, whoever they were and from whatever they come. Please, leave them alone. I know. I ran away once. Those dead, they are still with me. Peace on Site?

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 2:42:19 PM

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panurg, You chide me for bringing up painful history, but cited something quite similar yourself a few days ago to make a point. I'll defend my analogy. Many attempt to stifle discussion of emigration. On this thread alone, it's asserted that those who advocate leaving the U. S. are moles or pussies. Always buttressing such insults are invocations of the same kind of destructive "patriotism" and American exceptionalism that drive the NeoCons. One of the effects of these attempts to censor and ostracize is to make it harder for people who are at risk to learn about the complicated process of relocating so that they might make informed decisions. In Germany in the early 30s, there were those who tried to do the same thing. They encouraged people to stay. They derided those who were focused on getting people out. And as the link in my comment points out, people died as a result. Every country has ugliness in its past, and the country where I live--Croatia--certainly has its share. The Ustase in WWII were among the Nazis' most vicious accomplices, and the nationalists who first came to power here in 1991 bore far too close a kinship to them. But the country rejected that path in 2000, and has since been headed, sometimes in fits and starts, toward integration with the rest of Europe and reconciliation with its neighbors. Should all of those in targeted categories leave? Well, the U. S. rounded up all Japanese on the West Coast in the 40s, whether or not they were citizens. Muslims are in extreme danger of a similar fate. We know from news reports that the government has been keeping files on many antiwar activists and critics of the Bush administration. How many are in danger? That's hard to predict. We have seen a backlash against gay equality around the country. We watch as atheists' beliefs are used against them in political campaigns echoing Bush 41's assertion that atheists are not really citizens since this is "one country under God." You have lived under conditions of extreme oppression. People have a tremendous capacity to adapt and survive. One can simply say, as the Japanese-Americans did in WW II, that, "it cannot be helped." For those who remain behind, that will be the reality rather than some silly fantasy of armed resistance. But while there is still time, those at risk should at least consider leaving, at least until the madness comes to an end through internal or external forces.

by Ezekiel (16 articles, 12 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 3:34:16 PM

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that Ezekiel had defended his point quite elegantly. I appreciate the good answer. In sorts I agree: an option to leave is to be open. And information is needed.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 5:01:27 PM

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I appreciate your reply.

by Ezekiel (16 articles, 12 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 at 10:27:41 PM

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Whether I agree or disagree with Ezekiel in general, one particular topic worries me very much. I think, the primary endangered people in the US are the youth, the 18-30 group. That is why for the youth I would argue that they should be able to leave and we, the older people should be able to help them in that. I think, our administration prepares for the overwhelming carnage of the US young. Surely, they also target the young in other countries. Patriotism is, of course, in the eyes of the beholder but we all have to understand- it is the youth who pays the price for the crimes committed by their fathers. And as such I say that young people should have their choice to go away first and foremost.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 7:48:50 AM

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We all have much to fear in a country where the rule of law has been ravaged, beaten, and bled dry like one of Jack the Ripper's many victims. Our country has been turned into a whore, and now comes the knife! I agree that it is the young who have the most to lose, and the most to fear from the DUBYA regime. If we continue to stay the course, the need for a draft becomes a very real thing. Boy howdy, won't that spin a few peoples' opinions around in another direction? However, we all have just as much to fear. We who could be considered elder statesmen are in more immediate danger, especially when we refuse to shut up and play nice. I for one, absolutely refuse to shut up, or play nice! I am a patriot, and I am disgusted by the actions of nationalists in patriot clothing. They defile and disgrace this country, and can't even be man enough to admit that is exactly what they are doing. Liars, hypocrites, and charlatans one and all. That goes for all who supported the torture bill, DUBYA, Dick(LESS) Cheney, Condi, Dumbsfeld, and anyone I have forgotten to name. Not a one of them is a patriot. Not a one of them gives a half a sh*t about this country! They are all the most perverse and ignoble sorts of humans. Saying those kinds of things puts me at great risk. Not saying them puts me at greater risk. I have to live inside this skin, and hear my thoughts. I cannot and will not remain silent when my head will not allow me the privledge of internal silence. So, because I can't be silent, my life, liberty, and ability to pursue happiness are put at risk. I don't think anyone would blame me if I did up and leave. However, by running away, I would be saying my own principles are not worthy dying for. I believe in my principles too much to sell them that cheaply! Blessed be! Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 2:10:26 PM

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I, for one have been reading Ezekial for sometime now. He's a very wise man. I, at 79 years cannot really plan on joining him in Croatia. My social security check is not enough to make a move on. I for one, have kept a supply of food and water ( and other Y2K stuff) on hand, ever since bush was selected. We make certain that it's replenished every month. ZEKE, you rock!!

by Pat Herrick (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 169 comments) on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 at 3:29:06 PM

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