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September 8, 2007 at 09:05:26

Headlined on 9/8/07:
Vengeance, Revenge and Retaliation--Anyone Got Any Better Ideas?

by Dennis Diehl     Page 1 of 2 page(s)

www.opednews.com

 
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One of the less great "thus sayeth the Lord" moments in the Bible was the imposition of the very well know principle of "an eye for an eye and and a tooth for a tooth." I understand that an apologist can say it just means that people should be paid restitution for losses, but in practice, Governments and most Evangelicals, love the literal translation. I assume that also went on to mean to those who know the deeper meanings of such things that it could also mean, "a leg for a leg", "a spine for a spine," and "a skull for a skull." While God claimed the exclusive right to vengeance in the Old Testament (Psalms 94:1 O Lord, the God who avenges, O God who avenges, shine forth." and in the New Testament, (Romans 12:19 "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord,) the Israelites pretty much did the work for Him,.  The Christians who evolved to make up the Church of history also did a darn nice job of inflicting God's wrath upon both the believer who believed the wrong thing and unbeliever who needed to be pursuaded.

As a child, when hearing this all in Sunday School, I had a picture of all the people in the Old Testament running around blind and toothless and it explained why Jesus may have had so many blind people to heal in the New. I don't recall Jesus restoring any teeth however.

Later I began to think that vengeance was one thing reserved only for God, but retaliation must be somewhat of a more subtle human endeavor. You know, a way around the problem of not being allowed to inflict vengeance per se. But then I find that Jesus nixed the idea of retalaliation with his own example in 1 Peter 2:23. "When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. " But then I got to thinking about the entire theme of the Book of Revelation, where Jesus, well the Cosmic Jesus at least, wreaks vengeance, revenge and retaliation big time upon the entire planet for not going with the program. The Jesus of the Gospels might be the distant cousin of the Jesus of Revelation, but I don't think the Jesus of the Gospels could actually be the Jesus of Revelation, at least not without a change of brain chemistry and his Meyers-Briggs Personality Profile.

So then I got to thinking that it's not that you can't retaliate or get vengeance, but you have to wait until you have tried everything else before scraping your enemies off the face of the earth. But then I learned from President Bush and my government that trying everything only took a few weeks at most, and never worked so you had to bomb the sh-- out of people quickly and with shock and awe. Yeah, that works and in a very short time people are apologizing for 911 and wondering what were they thinking? 

Now Iran seems to be in the crosshairs, but for the love of God, they only want to put food on their families and coexist with fish like the President tells us we want and can do!  Their OBGYN's want to practice their love for all women too and not be fooled even once much less twice!

At any rate, let's get back to this idea about vengeance, no matter who it belongs to, retaliation and revenge. as far as I can tell it does not seem to promote anything but vengeance, retaliation and revenge, which seems counterproductive.

When the Hatfields and McCoys went at it over decades I believe, all we ended up with was less of each and a great story....all because of a pig I believe. Actually I have lived in Eastern Kentucky and vengeance, retaliation and revenge is what you do in them thar hills because reception of both TV and radio signals is so bad. There is little else to do or talk about after the day is done without those modern conveniences. It is no coincidence that the Hatfield and McCoy thing eased up a bit right about the time you could put that one big ass satellite dish in your front yard! I often saw dishes almost half as broad as the house, but darn it, there was peace in that family and surrounding county. Watching the Dukes of Hazard is safer than BEING the Dukes of Hazard!

I've been to the Middle East where every stone upon the ground has been thrown at sometime, by someone, at someone for some reason and often. The Middle East is the Land of Handy Stones or perhaps we should say the Land of "Oh Yeah? Yeah!, Oh Yeah? Yeah! I know you are but what am I, Oh Yeah? Yeah? Make me! Take that! Doh!"

It's all nuts. Kinda like growing up in the 50's picturing the launch of one missle that lead to two back that lead to twenty that led to a hundred that led to hell. I still vote Rodney King of "Can't we all just get along" fame be head of the UN or at least advise the next President. Getting along is not a lasting quality with the current administration.

Speaking of the current powers that be, it's disturbing just how difficult if not impossibe it is for anyone to get to talk with this guy when sabre's are a rattlin' and agendas are a formin'. Seems the converstaion goes something like this.

The Threatened: "Can we talk?"

The Decider: "No"

The Threatened "Would you like to debate it?"

The Decider "No"

The Threatened "Would you like to come look?"

The Decider "No"

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Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors. 

 

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Lenny Gray was, at one time, a Conservative Libertarian who eventually noticed the "well let them die" attitude that served his Right Wing compatriots as the common answer to the complex problems of the life of communities. He now considers himself a Leftist, where "Left" denotes the interests of the "common man". He's a computer programmer by trade.
lenngrayLenny Gray was, at one time, a Conservative Libertarian who eventually noticed the "well let them die" attitude that served his Right Wing compatriots as the common answer to the complex problems of the life of communities. He now considers himself a Leftist, where "Left" denotes the interests of the "common man". He's a computer programmer by trade.

No retaliation?

Arguing that it's counterproductive is also to argue that one shouldn't bother with justice, either.  No need for recompense.  Let the evil take what it will -- maybe it'll get tired in the end.  We have bastards who blocked Democratic appointment of judges when they had the power, but argued that the Dems shouldn't act similarly, when it was their turn, because that would just be revenge.  Now we have a clearly evil candidate for impeachment, but the Dems are so "forgiving" that they want to be charitable to the "retarded guy".  Great result.  I'm getting tired of the "one way valve" effect.

In the 60's there were student game simulations, that evaluated the outcomes of revenge versus no revenge in the scenario of nuclear war.  And it turned out that the optimal behavior, for all, was "tit for tat".  The main reason for this is that after unilaterally attacking the opposition, the victor "knows", in his heart, that he should expect retaliation, even if none seems forthcoming, because "that's what he'd do".  With violence as his experience, and fear of the impending revenge, the victor chooses to then annihilate his "forgiving" adversary.

Myths are all well and good, emphasizing values, but at some point it's also good to wake up to reality.

 

- Lenny Gray - 

 

 

by lenngray (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 45 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 10:46:58 AM
 


I am a 56 year old male cabinet maker. I am also a Ron Paul supporter.
chessmasterI am a 56 year old male cabinet maker. I am also a Ron Paul supporter.

Dennis Kucinich is a liar.

This is a quote from his website.

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate for President who has voted against authorizing the war in Iraq and against funding its continuation.

by chessmaster (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 3:06:07 PM
 


Lenny Gray was, at one time, a Conservative Libertarian who eventually noticed the "well let them die" attitude that served his Right Wing compatriots as the common answer to the complex problems of the life of communities. He now considers himself a Leftist, where "Left" denotes the interests of the "common man". He's a computer programmer by trade.
lenngrayLenny Gray was, at one time, a Conservative Libertarian who eventually noticed the "well let them die" attitude that served his Right Wing compatriots as the common answer to the complex problems of the life of communities. He now considers himself a Leftist, where "Left" denotes the interests of the "common man". He's a computer programmer by trade.

On thinking more about it ...

Considering the need for some retaliation, your own mention of "It's not like he [the pope] can demand to go in and shoot the man twice for him shooting him once" points to the answer.

The way to avoid geometric escalation is for the retaliation to be non-zero but less than what was inflicted in the first place. If everyone did that, then the system would settle to a condition of relative quiescence.

In engineering terms, such an approach would try to "damp out" the oscillations of karmic violence. Attempting to "short circuit" the revenge reactions creates "reflections" in the behavioral "transmission line".

- Lenny Gray -

by lenngray (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 45 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 11:08:12 AM
 


Student of history, religion, exoteric and esoteric, the Humanities in general and advocate for peace, justice and the unity of humankind, not through force, but through self-realization and mutual respect.
Mac McKinneyStudent of history, religion, exoteric and esoteric, the Humanities in general and advocate for peace, justice and the unity of humankind, not through force, but through self-realization and mutual respect.

Buddhist Thoughts on Revenge

Buddha's teachings are addressed to individuals primarily, but do his same teachings apply to states? I would argue yes. Buddha is saying that if you want to be caught in an endless destructive cycle, go ahead and hate, seek vengeance, or whatever you want to call it.

On the teachings of Buddha:

From the Dhammapada (translation by Ekneth Easwaran):

From Chapter One: Twin Verses

1)   Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think. Suffering follows an evil thought as the wheels of a cart follow the oxen that draw it.

2)   Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think. Joy follows a pure thought like a shadow that never leaves.

3)   "He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - those who dwell on such thoughts will never be free from hatred.

4)   "He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - those who do not dwell on such thoughts will surely be free from hatred.

5)   For hatred can never put an end to hatred; love alone can. This is an unalterable law. People forget that their lives will soon end. For those who remember, quarrels will come to an end.

by Mac McKinney (42 articles, 69 quicklinks, 164 diaries, 1070 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 12:53:07 PM
 


electronic technician, truth seeker
Bob Gormleyelectronic technician, truth seeker

Buddhist Thoughts

True!

Jesus knew this.

Ghandhi knew this.

All flesh dies, spirit lives forever.

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 932 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 7:40:10 PM
 


Sheila Jackson: Mother of two, grandmother of four, Air Force Veteran, two college degrees, an Associate Degree in Mechanical Engineering Technology and a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Interdisciplinary Studies obtained at the age of sixty five.  Anti-war, pro-peace, pro religious freedom (from and to).  Retired from a kaleidoscope of occupations, including writing a political opinion column, doing interviews, photography, articles and  a comic strip and cart...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Sheila JacksonSheila Jackson: Mother of two, grandmother of four, Air Force Veteran, two college degrees, an Associate Degree in Mechanical Engineering Technology and a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Interdisciplinary Studies obtained at the age of sixty five.  Anti-war, pro-peace, pro religious freedom (from and to).  Retired from a kaleidoscope of occupations, including writing a political opinion column, doing interviews, photography, articles and  a comic strip and cart...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Vengeance, revenge, retaliation, etc.

Brilliantly written, logical, organized and linguistically correct with colorful descriptions thrown in for flavoring.  A joy to read.  And so damn right on.  God, the entire Bush administration has the depth of understanding of a bloodworm.  Yet, they just keep getting their way, as if stupidity coupled with greed and slimy politics were somehow invincible. 

by Sheila Jackson (16 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 133 comments) on Saturday, September 8, 2007 at 9:50:33 PM
 

 

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