Right on! Right on! RIGHT effin' ON! (Punching my clenched fist in the air...)

Thank you for pointing this out and bringing some much needed perspective to this issue. 

The last time I checked, folks who were willing to risk EVERYTHING, put their lives and their futures on the line to fight against an out- of-control tyrannical, murderous, outlaw regime were called "patriots," "freedom fighters" and "heros."

History has shown that the regime which controlled the "American" agenda in the sixties engaged in a long list of illegal activities, not only to have and continue their war in SE Asia, raking in immense profits but also to stifle dissent and civil liberties here at home. They murdered numerous leaders, politicians and public figures. They lied, dissembled and distorted the facts to cover their activities. The Pathers and Weatherman (among others) who fought against those traitors and outlaws in public office were the real Amerian heros of the era. We need that sort of altruism and motivation now more than ever. Alas.

Thank you for that perspective!

by mrk * (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 311 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:36:43 PM

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THANK YOU, Dave, for saying what too many of us who understand what the underground was trying to accomplish, for saying what we are frightened of saying aloud in this current era.

 How does Ayers compare with one singer "decider" who has the blood of one singe Iraqi child on his hands?  That was my youth, and I'm calmer now, but for a moment You make me want to run to the nearest skyscraper, fly to the top, and say, "Wake Up, World!"

 Leigh Saavedra

by Leigh Saavedra (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:03:20 PM

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What's age got to do with it?

by Dave Lindorff (438 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 193 comments [10 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:19:38 PM

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And thus I watched through the years for her to use her credit card. Somewhere I read that her dad, who owned a cartage company in Milwaukee (best I remember) gave her one as mad money. And the stories of her coming back to her own name mentioned it. The University of Chicago in those days was thought of as a thinking person's school. Obama speaks of it in this way now.

Radical chic, they called it. The kind that had Lennie Bernstein giving parties attended by some of the Panthers. I wonder if the "Others" like Hillary whose political start is well catalogued really understand what was happening at the 68 convention. Curious how Tom Hayden enjoys recognition for political understanding. Curiouser still, how Bobby Rush had to reveal the secret of Chicago politics before Barack Obama got his start. And the up there in the comfortable northern suburbs came Hillary who has zigged and zagged into political philosophy.

by Margaret Bassett (45 articles, 2909 quicklinks, 42 diaries, 1850 comments [99 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:45:51 PM

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After law school, in 1969, she clerked for a Commie lawfirm in San Francisco that defended Angela Davis, Huey Newton, and a bunch of other Panthers, as well as many other left causes, including war resisting soldiers. So she knew what was going on. In fact, she hung with people who were at least as dangerous to the "System" as was Ayers, but she doesn't talk about it--and in fact left it out of her autiohagiography.

Those who disown their pasts are not to be trusted with the present or, especially, with the future. 

by Dave Lindorff (438 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 193 comments [10 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:23:43 PM

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In the name of peace?  You're out of your wannabe terrorist mind!  SHAME ON YOU!  How about driving the speed limit?  There are so many things activists for peace CAN DO everyday, like driving the speed limit.  I can't believe you;'re endorcing what the WU did.  They were what ending PEACE LOVE and FLOWER POWER! 

by Jeanette Doney (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 307 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:31:21 PM

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I said maybe we shouldn't be bombing, but we need to do something more militant than just marching every few months.

 I said the Weather Underground's campaign was quixotic and opposed by most in the peace movement, but I alsoi said it was not terrorism as we know it, since it was not aimed at terrorising the people. It was aimed at government property. And I said that it empowered the peace movement, by making it seem scarier to the authorities, since they had to worry that it could move to a more violent strategy, as that being espoused by the Weatherpeople...and the Panthers.

 I stand by that.

If we had such an underground today you can bet that Washington would be taking our mass marches more seriously too, instead of ignoring them, just as they'd take us more seriously if we stormed the White House gates and occupied the front lawn, or if we took over the Pentagon parking lot and made it impossible for the staff to come to work. 

by Dave Lindorff (438 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 193 comments [10 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:46:09 PM

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Interesting, that Hillary seems to be attempting to totally divest herself from parts of her history, while making up the rest.

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:44:32 PM

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"Ayers has earned respect... They should be honored..."

Bull puckey. Nobody I know who has a modicum of decency and common sense would give honor or respect to such people. Here's a thought: Remenber that there were a handful of anti-abortion nuts who successfully bombed clinics without actually killing anybody? Are you going to refrain from calling them terrorists? I'm not.

ELF. ALF. Abortion clinic bombers. Weather Underground. I will call them all terrorists.

by Scott (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 744 comments [30 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:58:45 PM

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I am not defending bombings that kill people, but I am pointing out that there is a difference between targeting people, and targeting a criminal government. The Weather Underground targeted the Pentagon and Congress, and was careful to make sure no individuals would be injured. The goal of the Weather Underground was not to terrorize people, but rather to bring the war to the government. The abortion bombers very definitely wanted to frighten people--the doctors and nurses who work in abortion clinics, and the women who need those clinics. That is classic terrorism. Even if they bomb those clinics at night, they are trying to scare people who work at those clinics. The rhetoric of the anti-abortion bombers has been that those who perform abortions are mass murderers, and they never express any concern about injuring them. So I'd say this was classic terror.

Still, I don't support bombing. I'm just saying that what the Weather Underground did at the time that they did it, actually strengthened the impact of the peaceful anti-war movement, even as the movement condemned the bombing campaign.

That's simply a fact. 

by Dave Lindorff (438 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 193 comments [10 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:33:39 AM

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by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:12:35 AM

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I write some pretty heavy articles at times, and I have attempted, on numerous occasions to organize people and the Progressive/Liberal sites to band together in solidarity. Guess what I receive from the "government" for my efforts?

I live in Northern Georgia, and obviously, if you do a visual trace on my IP address, naturally it should indicate that I'm posting from Georgia.

NOT!

For reasons that BellSouth/AT&T refuse to answer or resolve, my personal traffic has been routed through a special data center in Miami, Florida. Yes, I have evidence that is easy for all to see. I use three (3) tracking program on my site, and one of them is Statcounter.com. If I allow it to log my own visits, as I did accidentally when I cleaned out all of the cookies in my system, this is what I found - months ago, and it still persists until today:

adsl-074-166-050-087.sip.asm.bellsouth.net (Bellsouth.net Inc) [Label IP Address]

Florida, Miami, United States, 0 returning visit

Yes, that is my IP address, as I have DSL 6.0, the fastest available so I can work fast and have the ability to keep as many as twelve to fifteen sites open at once while I'm doing research on articles that I'm writing. I have had friends log into my site, and they show-up in the towns that they are located in, even those that use BellSouth. We have tested it and then called BellSouth support and no one will explain why all of my Internet traffic is routed through Miami. In other words, every keystroke that I make is logged by the government, and I suspect that I am a "marked man" because I have dared to try and organize people on a mass scale. What's wrong with this picture? I have never written anything that proposes violence, but I have been out front in my criticism and efforts to organize other people - and I have raised some eyebrows that I am sure I will pay for some time in the near future.

This is a vicious, terrible government, not of the people, but an establishment that "marks" all of those that are too vocal and have the ability to reach large numbers of people. Our traffic has been increasing and this month we are likely to hit over 25,000 unique visitors - and that's just from Statcounter, which only logs those who have their cookies turned on.

AWSTATS, an internal Program offered my BlueHost states that so far this month, we have received 17,043 unique visits, and WEBALIZER, another internal tracking program indicates we have to far received 27,775 visits who read 49,003 pages and a total of 811,131 total "hits" so far this month, and that does not include commercial or search bots. They are reported under a different part of the program.

The point I'm attempting to make is that if you reach too many people and your message makes sense, the government will target you and watch for anything that they can use against you at a later date. The question I ask myself, almost on a daily basis, is if I am endangering the rest of my family by attempting to organize and disseminate the truth as I see it? I care for a mother who has terminal cancer, my sister and her children live with me, and now my twins are moving in with us in a larger house so we can pool our limited resources and attempt to keep a roof over our heads as the economy keeps getting worse on a daily basis.

I also believe that this is stark evidence that the government is watching those of us who dare to disagree - however, I am unsure of what the consequences will be for being a "freedom fighter" as so many of us are that write in an effort to bring our country back to sanity, our constitutional values, and the rule of law. My message is always one of non-violence, but based on the government watching every move I make - it makes me believe that they view me as a dissident and possibly even as "an enemy combatant."

To those right-wing Rethuglicans that scoff at us when we state that we are being "watched", I assert that this is undeniable evidence that we are right and they are wrong, and to make matters worse, they know it - but still attempt to continue their lies and propaganda. The Bush administration is not targeting terrorists as they say they are, but anyone who dares to exercise their constitutional rights of free speech.

I'm seriously considering placing Justanothercoverup.com and ,net on Ebay and writing as an independent – as I believe that if someone else owned this site and knew what they were doing, it is a valuable site and does have good advertising potential, however, I don't know how or what to advertise - but I am now becoming worried that owning my site is endangering my entire family.

To those that state we are paranoid, I offer this as evidnce that it's not paranoia - but fact, one that affects all of us who are attempting to save our nation. I agree with the author of the above aticle. In the 60's, those that fought for fredom and transparency in government were viewed by the public as patriots, and now, we are viewed as "enemys of the state" - or, at least that's that way I see it.

William Cormier

by William Cormier (152 articles, 11 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 418 comments [9 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 4:04:56 AM

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       I agree, the panthers WERE SCARY AND WONDERFUL. therefore blown up by the federales. They had roots in the community. They ran a breakfast program. They chalenged the police brutality in their communities. They had a newspaper.  the weather underground were underground. Historically they were out of touch with the PEOPLE.. The PEACE MARCHES ARE VERY SEDATE. i LOOK AT THE KIDS WHO ARE ANARCHISTS BREAKING OFF FROM THE MARCH TO ENGAGE IN CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. i LOVE THEM.I'm sure Hillary has long ago shed AnY semblance of revolutionary gusto. hER AND oBAMA ARE AT BEST DOOFIS'S . i AM STILL PISSED OFF ABOUT THE SAME THINGS. sAME JERKS NEW WAR. yES, WE NEED TO DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT BUT IN TANKS. pEOPLE ARE ONLY GONNA GET ANGRY WHEN THERE IS A DRAFT. nARCISISM AND COMPLACENCY HAS WON OUT FOR THE MOMENT. tHINGS ARE GETTING BAD SO RAPIDLY THAT THINGS ARE GONNA CHANGE. yOU DON'T NEED A WEATHERMAN TO TELL WHICH WAY THE WIND BLOWS OR DO YOU?

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:39:46 AM

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One should pause and go back and read one of Tom Robbin's most controversial books: Still Life With Woodpecker

Civil disobedience can take many forms, the tactics employed by WU can very well be placed in the extreme of that form of descent. The fact that there are those that will only be moved when challenged with either real or perceived threats to their position and power makes the tactics employed by WU a tool that in times of extreme necessity may very well have to be used. It is an attention getter and as long as no living person is targeted for harm passes any moral indignation one may feel.

It is an extreme tactic and one that can be turned against those that use it as we are witnessing now by those who would equate what WU employed with violent terrorists who have no regard for humane life. But one should be aware of insidious methods employed by those powers who would twist the intentions of what WU was trying to achieve and put it all in context and not be so quick to condemn WU for their actions.

Which one of us haven't thought of pouring sugar down gas tanks of SUV's? A milder form of what WU was attempting to do but no less destructive a message to the owner of the SUV. Extreme times call for extreme measures and when all other forms of descent all ignored by powers-that-be, sometimes it's advantageous to throw a Cherry-Bomb in the punchbowl of the powerful.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:39:34 AM

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when you have 5 kids. Bear that in mind before you wreck someone's SUV. Not everyone who has an SUV is just a gas guzzling swine.

by larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 303 comments) on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:07:55 PM

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During Wednesday's debate, Hillary had absolutely no compunctions against suggesting by conflation that the Weather Underground had killed bystanders and that Bill Ayers' comment about "should have done more" was expressed as a reaction to the events of 9/11. Both statements, or twisted interrelationships, are false.

by John Sanchez Jr. (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 25 diaries, 1791 comments [148 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:30:21 AM

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It is fuzzy in my memory as I was not politially engaged back then. but didn't someone die in a bombing in Wisconsin?  Innocent they were.  Targeting of civilian noncombatants is propelling much outrage for indicting Americans for war crimes, collateral damage is no defense.

Why are domestic terrorists not held to same rules of engagement?  What is the mystique or romantic hype conveyed by violent protest as opposed to nonviolent protest?  It was the violent murder of MLK which turned the country's eyes to demand civil rights for all.  But it was his peaceful marches and inclusive words that paved the way--the long journey to justice.  No one said it would be easy.

I think he would be appalled at the way his image has been co-opted for political purposes by the Barack Obama campaign.  I will research the WU movement to check, but I do think one or two men were killed in one of their forays for "peace."  What groupthink and doublespeak is going on here?

Using the most flimsy of premises to bash Hillary Clinton has become a national pastime, right up there with American Idol and just as shallow, a veritable pastiche cobbled together for our viewing entertainment.  When a topic lacks substance, it becomes little more than recreation.

by Marilyn Frith (6 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 194 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:51:56 PM

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Read the article.

by John Sanchez Jr. (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 25 diaries, 1791 comments [148 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:55:47 PM

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While many in the anti-war movement condemned the actions of the Weather Underground, I would argue that they, like the militant Black Panthers, performed an invaluable role by sending a loud, clear message to the nation's ruling elite that if they continued the war, things would get worse at home.

Their actions made the peaceful mass protests against the Indochina War far more potent, because they forced the ruling elite in the US to have to ponder what would happen if those masses turned to the same kind of violent measures against them.

And I'll throw another name up in support. John Brown the abolitionist. Many abolitionists were peaceful folk who talked a lot. John Brown got tired of the talking.

Abraham Lincoln would not have gone to war to abolish slavery only to preserve the Union. But John Browns decisive action though widely regarded as wrongheaded at the time and renounced by Lincoln, from the standpoint of history, seems to have been a catalyst for the American Civil War which, once undertaken, became about abolition.

Peaceniks are praised because praising them is politically correct and the safe thing to do but when Martin Luther King spoke his was not the only voice of opposition the establishment heard. So too with Gandhi. There was always the implied threat of violence.

Does not the Bible talk of the second coming in which God returns as a King with 12 armies of angels? So, what's with the army imagery in that old story?

Its never politically correct to say so but it is bedrock reality. The threat of violence works. Cheney and Bush obviously respect torture and they obviously fear it. When was the last time Cheney or Bush gave a peace activist anything that even looked like respect? 

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:47:47 AM

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In 1970 during a Weatherman bombing at the Army Research Center in Sterling Hall, University of Wisconsin, Madison Campus, a young researcher, Robert Fassnacht was killed and millions of dollars worth of damage was caused. http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column282063

Ayers went underground for eleven years and then turned himself in; he was never convicted. The case was dropped due to what was deemed FBI's lack of legal process.  Ayers has since been lauded and apparently received much support for his heroics.  How heroic is it to plant a bomb and run?  Ayers enjoys the good life...

Robert Fassnacht remains dead, his life snuffed out for no good reason.  Please explain why Ayers life is more precious than Fassnacht's life.  I don't think the WU shortened the Vietnam War by one day; it simply played out, losing momentum due to lack of purpose, which is usually the case with all human activities, good and bad.

by Marilyn Frith (6 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 194 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:57:39 PM

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as part of a current exhibit "The Enemy Within: Terror in America - 1776 to Today."

It's a well done mini-documentary and rather sympathetic to the Weather Underground. Bernadine Dohrn, one of the leaders, signed the group's "Declaration of war against the U.S." Dohrn is now an associate professor of law at Northwestern University School of Law and the director of Northwestern's Children and Family Justice Center. In the film, which was made fairly recently, she remains committed to the ideals of the group and says she has no regrets about those years, (except about the two deaths of their members).

WU was also infiltrated by COINTELPRO so there is reason to question government accounts about the group.

by Kathlyn Stone (46 articles, 227 quicklinks, 27 diaries, 690 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 4:14:57 PM

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Marilyn let us agree one life is not worth more than another. You weren't politicallyactive then. I might remind you of the 55.000 American boys who died and 300,000 wounded. It was in that context that someone may have been killed by accident. It was pretty regular for Vietnamese innocents and American boys (drafted) into the army to die. I still haven't heard any appologies from the bums who engineered that action. Why would you focus criticism on one American patriot who may have hurt someone totally unintentionally. I think maybe you had to be there to understand the passion and desperation. Try to put things in the proper context. Self righteousness is a lame trait. Many people just like now chose to do nothing at all,

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:22:54 PM

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You seem to be saying that crime is relative.  You want to let individual crimes off the hook in your zeal to defend the Ayers' WU movement, which to extrapolate in this thread, becomes a transparent apology for Barack Obama's really, dumb and totally irrelevant debate point.  Am I following you so far?

I lived through the Vietnam War; I was an adult with opinions and came to view it for what it was--an exercise in corporate excess generated by what we call the military/industrial complex.  Still, it never occurred to me to bomb a government facility, destroy property, harm another human being.

Violent peace protest is an oxymoron.

If I were allowed a little amateur psychology regard the men of WU, I might speculate they simply didn't want to go to Vietnam and were too manly to admit it so they acted out, as they say.  As for Bernadine Dohrn, it find her acts even more repulsive; as a woman, we should seek to defend not destroy.  Were they made to pay full compensation for their sins?  That fact alone should raise eyebrows.  What was their strange hold over the American imagination?  They got off on a technicality, FBI and Counterpol notwithstanding. 

Obviously, their little acts still hold some odd glamour for men of that age who romanticize bravado, in much same way Latinos lionize Che Guevara (and for a lot less reasons) We humans are a strange lot, ascribing to those who rise above the mundane special attributes they rarely demonstrate.

I will not be convinced that Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers are other than common garden-variety criminals, despite doing community pennance in charity work or securing a vaulted place as tenured intellectuals.  They were complicit in felonies that resulted in murder-one.  And still they have not truly repented because the must keep up appearances of heroic victims of an unjust system.  Balderdash! 

I can understand the sybolism employed here; Barack Obama also plays with our conscience and portrays himself as victim of a vicious white hiearchical system bent on destroying the underdog.   Yet he was the recipient of all the advantages his comfortable situation afforded.

This is coming to be a lament, not for Ayres, so much (he doesn't need it) as a pitch for Obama, as usual.  It always reduces to a "them v us"game, with Hillary representing the elite-wing and Obama troops bringing up the rear for the poor and disadvantaged.

I am not buying it.  The point was made that Hillary lied about the WU involvement in a death during the debate; info debunking claim was given; can we see a little contrition and admit we were bamboozled again by Barack, the man-child? Today the little finger flip proves conclusively he is not ready to don the man's suit for POTUS.

Nice try, though.

by Marilyn Frith (6 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 194 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:41:05 PM

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Murder is a crime not just against the victum but against the fabric of society.

Aggessive invasion is even more so because it is a crime against humankinds peace treaty in the form of the United Nations Charter.

Crimes are things that groups of people together agree are wrongs and should be actioned against for the greater good of the group.

Jaywalking and footpath spitting are wrongs but not so wrong as murder-one so all crimes are not equal in their offensiveness and harmfulness.

It was more harmful to the cause of a global rule of law in the world when the United States with all the power and priviledge it has went to war on Iraq (and probably Vietnam though I was too young to bring an adult mind to bear in those times) than murder one is wrong because it harms more people and strikes more seriously at the fabric of human society.

We cannot have rights unless we humans underwrite those rights with responsibilities.  We don't get something for nothing. If you disagree and think that some rights are God given, then I'd say to you that let God underwrite those rights.

Here on earth in secular society we humans have to make our own living conditions and we do that by making laws.  In the hierarchy of laws murder is above lesser crimes. But because we cannot have confidence in the rule of law when criminal actions like aggressive invasion (and the invasion of Iraq was against both US domestic law and international law - it is only political spin in the domestic US environment that says otherwise) take place aggressive invasion are worse crimes than murder one.

In my opinion murder is a lesser evil than an aggressive invasion because it does less harm than an aggressive invasion. In my opinion, to assassinate a politician, to murder that politician would be morally justified if it prevented aggressive invasion. Of course the problem morally is knowing when.

I have given this some thought. If a murder is accompanied by self-sacrifice then one is giving up ones own life as well for ones convictions - and that shows that one is serious and not just rationalising. No one should murder in order to do good before all less drastic measures are considered because ones own life and the life of the one to be murdered both count as human life. But a human life count of two is a count of two. And two lives are not more important or of greater moral worth than the lives of thousands that can be lost in war.

Sometimes two lives lost is better than more and it is an unfortunate fact of human existence than sometimes the other people in our world force us to choose between submission to their violence or opposition to it with violence of our own.

Sometimes one has to be able to say give me liberty (or some other value that one holds to be of the utmost importance) or give me death. We are all mortal and will die of something sooner or later anyway. But if we are to live morally, we have to make moral choices. And other people can force us into situations where the only choices are between lesser evils or lesser wrongs.

I am glad that Dave Lindorff, a person who has written a great deal on and been an activist for impeachment is hosting this conversation because I think that change requires both the doers and the talkers. Talk matters. It is important for people to consider the pros and cons of moral positions in order for society (which is a collection of individuals) to take moral positions.

Peaceful protests are generally good things. But peaceful protests and sometimes not going to be enough. Not everyone has to be willing to do violence but probably some do need to be willing to do violence for the voices of the peaceful protestors that are calling for the same things to get a hearing.

When the elite move their position they can then point at the peaceful protests and say that it was that and not fear of violence that moved them and the elite can then save face and society can go back to opposing violence and opposing lesser crimes.  

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 7:52:01 PM

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precisely why I pay no attention to HiLAIRy supporters in any way. I am aware that she pays many bloggers to stay devoted to her via Media Matters and seen the cooptation of many former radicals who should not better. Commitment to human rights far trumps the "survival" of the Democratic Party which she has been HANDPICKED to destroy.

I completely give up on Democratic politics save for the candidacy of Shirley Golub who I admire INTENSELY.  That way lies hope and I hope those who voted for Ron Paul will reregister as DemocRATS who want a return to the Rule of Law will go out and vote for Shirley!!  IF I could  be in the United States right now (which I cannot as the Clintonistas ensured that I would never get my passport back and I live in fear of going back there) you can bet your last dollar I would be in San Francisco right now working for Shirley!

Why are you touting HiLIARy when it is clear that ther are other candidates more worthy of your support?

Only Ralph Nadar seems to have picked up the momentum to see that JUSTICE is done.   HiLIARy will surely not demand accountability for WAR CRIMES.

Many of us former SDSers are now members of Movement for a Democratic Society and we all call for IMPEACH INDICT IMPRISION as we have learned that the Universal Declaration of Human RIGHTS and the Geneva Conventions being STRICTLY adhered to is the best course of action and we work diligently to see that this is pursued, no matter what our circumstance.

HiLIARY and Bill Clinton wounded me and my family GREIVOUSLY and unless someone has the GUTS and BALLS to tell my story my future is not bright at all.  My publications have made me a huge target of the powers that be for a very long time now, as I was "marked" by Clinton forces long ago for standing up for Leonard Peltier.  Leonard isn't "guilty" but he sure took the rap.  He knows how dangerous irradiation of water actually is - he's seen the children die on the reservations.

HiLIARy has absolutely now ability and wish to see participatory democracy and is a TOOL of Robert Rubin.  Go over to FreeRepublic and read their archive, just FULL of fascinating information on all things Clinton and how Ken Starr covered up their various crimes for them.  Don Von Natta has exposed many things but those are not getting coverage.  The associations with Frank Giustra still go begging although superficial coverage is available. I wish Norman Hsu had turned state's evidence. 

Go watch the peterfpaul.com video on youtube - and then tell me how you can justify that.  That whole matter is now before FACTCHECK, the producer wrote and told me. That will come out in TIME.  The attacks on HiLIARy are no fiction coming from some quarters and she should NEVER be allowed to have her hands on TOP SECRET files, ever and the role of Commander in Chief; that way lies world tragedy.  She has no internal checks on her ambition on her behaviour and remains an addict to POWER.

Know I would tell my story pubically now if I were able; it has LONG been surpressed in the US press even though in 1997 I proved my refugee claim.  I have no powerful allies. But I will speak TRUTH and be a good patriot nonetheless and I have done that to the point of exhaustion - only my higher brain function is operational after a battle since 1993, as I say.

I did not agree with Bill Ayers and Bernadette and put a pamphlet against their actions considering it ELISTIST - the worker student alliance sector of whom their were plenty and not all tools of the government plant infected PLP all watched the movie Battle of Algiers.  We could see the inherant dangers of that tactic.  Where that is archived I cannot say, but it was published.  The guy I wrote it with is NOT on wikipedia nor the pamphlet mentioned. Why that is I cannot say. I do understand their motivation as I was very cynical after many years of work against the War in Vietnam.  I never resorted to anything illegal but was often set up and did time and probabion for contempt of court although those massive WAR CRIMINALS never served a day.  Their lives are not disrupted and huge amounts of money are not spent surveilling THEM. I wish I had the money that has been spent surveilling me, I'll tell ya -- as well as the money all those court hearings and tribunals have cost!! The US has paid mighty dollars silencing those who disagreed with the Hills and Bill dog and pony show.

What interests me is that people like me who have committed no crimes ever are still targetted for unpleasant lives.   Yet those two strut with impunity after committing massive war crimes.  America is sick indeed and must recover.

I have written to Movement for a Democratic Society and asked for assistance and help setting up an exPATS chapter as one does not exist at my old aluma matter and I am sure there is diapspora of former members; whether they received my request  is a considerable question to ponder - my computer is under constant attack, obviously.  I suggest anyone who is actually reading this thread to have a look at their website and take heart at the pictures posted there.

I am completely consistent in my postings on OpEd News.  You will note I have a chronic New Left position on anything although I have little contact with anyone on either side of the border and the antiwar movement has vilified me for years as I pointed out how Clinton croney Paul Wellstone really worked. Trust me that man was no plaster saint and I wonder why now SDS supporter Michael Moore hosts his dinners - when any real enquiry into Paul's racism should make it very appearant Wellstone was very guilty of crimes against humanity - something all New Lefts would abhor.

We of the remnants fo the New Left must call for adherance to GENEVA and pursue true devotion to PARTICIPATORY Democracy or our children will perish in this constant lobbying for weapons and the desire of the BuZh Clinton dynasty to keep itself in POWER. So old hands like myself just continue to take personal risks for the safety of all global children and a total end the nuclear power and armaments industries; that is where things went totally wrong with America and the blot that will not go away.  The US has sold 21 countries nuclear weapons!!  It has set up many nations for DESTRUCTION and made millions sick with depleted uranium - a global catastrophe of such great weight that most cannot handle the TRUTH. Things went wrong with the suppresion of the health consequences of radiation after the Japan bombings - and the evidence now lies buried in Dick Cheney's archives over  at the Department of Energy of all places.  Hidden in plain sight if one but looks as many are now declassified!!  Yet these CONgressional IDIOTS will keep spending billions to proliferate the toxic substance urananium which is really a byproduct of copper production.

It is suspected that Princess Diana was actually killed over her involvement in speaking out against clusterbombs. If Hillary is so impeccable, why did she not speak out against them for the sake of her "working class women" base? Their sons and daughters to fight in places where they are buried.  She marches off their sons and daughters to lands with du in the name of "freedom" and "democracy".  She is the most leading light of socialism for the rich that I have ever seen - profit$ for the rich to share, losses to be born by We the People.  She expects us to pay for our own wires being tapped, our bank accounts invaded, our homes to be taken away by her economic policies and then no shelters provided as no funds would be available under sinister proposals. 

How strange it is indeed to see you "talk down" to those activists how have remained consistent to our vision as if we were stoopid because I assure you that we stand against sytemic racism and sexism at every opportunity, and always have.  This outcry of enraged women who show up here and over at Daily Kos would be amusing in its Orwellian nature; if it were so completely insane and harmful.  I will never be willing lead into a box whereby I get incarcerated for insanity while the truly insane such as HiLIARy are given White House bedrooms. For any plants reading my wordZ, remember that is it incredibly hard to destroy TRUTH or FREEDOM and true patriots in the United States have known that all of their lives.  I am a member of the Seventh Generation and it is my DUTY to speak from the depth of my soul.

I have paid a HUGE price for my stand and walk in no man's land yet I retain my integrity.  Someday I hope that gets "put to rights" - it sure ain't gonna happen with HiLIARy in office, that is for SURE.  My story was front page news in the Commonwealth presses - yet was surpressed in the US even in my hometown where one day I just suddenly disappeared and am left with no legal remedy.  Idiots who pose as human rights attorneys ignore me, but someday my day will come.

Someday despite HiLIARy our true stories will be told and will get the respect we deserve.  It is with real pleasure that I watch the rebirth of the student movement that gave me so much - same as I gave it. Obviously the American traitor HiLIARy's candidacy does not put a smile on my face.

For true progressives, our support of the new New Left is highly critical - this way lies "salvation" as they have the energy and are not tainted by the incredible toxicity that has gone on. They want a SAFE future and remain undaunted by the prospecting of fighting for real Participatory Democracy.  I can only give them my written support now and not much else, but I freely give it.  Back in The Days, we found not much support from our elders when we were able to identify the forces at play in America and exposed. At least we can provide with nonrevisionist history lessons!!

One last observation - how in the WORLD can you expect an apologist for WALMART and slave labor who lied about it and an operative of MONSANTO to speak truth to the issues at this late stage of the game?  Surely surely you jest.

IMPEACH   INDICT   IMPRISON

Go back to the rule of law and get rid of the enviromental polluters and the bank ponzi scheme artists!!  Build a rainbow coaliton of impeachmetn supporters over the summer before the election and help establish true justice. We are in a wild ride now and it is impossible to say what comes next. 

and all efffort must put there - IMPEACHMENT and a new NUREMBERG trial for WAR CRIMINALS - not towards supporting one of the biggest tools of an indifferent elist class hell bent on depopulation.  Many have been test frogs in steadily heating up water and did not JUMP out - I think we can reasonably assume that despite the collusion of HiLIARy and Nancy Pelosi to silence us, we will be heard soon. EYES always on the true target, with energy conserved to make sure that this dream of good and worthy people materializes. The bribery, lobbying, corruption, influence peddling, sexual coverups that threaten our national security, the drug dealing by government officials - all must stop. Solutions are being sought to dispel the cynicism - which is bourgeious luxury in this age of genoicide and torture.

It is our duty to the young and seven generations foward that we do our utmost to effect real CHANGE.  This return to a XIII th century culture of torture must STOP and no resources given to its further implementation.

Hoping that this version will publish,

A PROUD member of SDS of the past !!

If only I could more be more effective now.  I ask that people face down their fears and lead .. if I can do it, so can you.

by ladybroadoak (39 articles, 20 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 394 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:26:40 PM

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You keep missing the point that none of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrns' "crime" killed anybody.  Neither was involved with the Wisconsin bombing.

I long ago decided that ALL the methods used to oppose the U.S. war on Vietnam -- from the most moderate suit and tie lobbying through civil disobedience to violent resistance -- contributed to the success of the Antiwar Movement.  The bombings, and even the occasional killings, contributed to the image of the Antiwar Movement of being really threatening opponents of the U.S. war on Vietnam.

And although I did not realize it during the war, it has subsequently been pointed out that the U,S. finally decided to pull out of Vietnam when the draftees started fragging their officers.  That is, they started killing their officers by throwing grenades into their tents while they were sleeping.  That, and Westmoreland reporting that even 500,000 troops were not sufficient to defeat the Vietnamese made the U.S. finally decide to pull out.  And fragging involved not only destroying property but actually KILLING PEOPLE!

And although many peace activists are quick to condemn the weather underground, most people still regard the members of the various resistance movements that fought the Germans during World War II in France, Denmark, Poland and other occupied countries as heroes.  The resistance movements not only set off bombs to destroy German property but also to kill occupying German troops and officers.  What is it about the United States that makes armed resistance to it criminal instead of heroic?

Robert Halfhill

by rhalfhill (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 325 comments) on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:53:16 AM

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If anyone began bombing government facilities in this day and age, it would probably give Bush and Cheney all of the ammunition they would need to declare martial law. I am so sad that Liberal/Progressives cannot come together in solidarity and do something that would change the course of politics in this nation. It's corny, and I know it - but it still rings of the truth. "United we stand, divided we fall", and at this point in our history, I have never witnessed the nation do divided, even among the Democratic Party.

Why is it so hard to get people to band together to fight a common enemy? I am sickened that we cannot see the forest through the trees. The GOP must be pleased beyond belief to see us going off in different directions. The strength of the GOP is that whether they are right or wrong, they stand shoulder to shoulder, even though it will be the downfall of our country. How can we all be so stupid? We are destroying ourselves while the GOP is laughing in our faces. It is sheer insanity that anyone could support a Presidential candidate that sings "Bomb, Bomb, Iran."

Every major outlet of the MSM should be picketed unmercifully until they start reporting the news rather than spewing the White House's propaganda - yet we allow them to get away with it while they stand complicit in the destruction of our nation. I'm beginning to feel like a fool attempting to unify people that don't have enough sense to understand that their future, and even more importantly, their children's future is at stake as well - yet they refuse to lift a finger in any meaningful way that would help to end the reign of traitors and tyrants that inhabit the White House and are busy dismantling everything we believe in...

I don't believe I'm being melodramatic in stating that our very lives are at stake yet no one will do anything to stop the march into utter and total fascism - and we have so little time left to make a difference. Talk, talk, talk, but no action. We believe in protecting our homes and would fight to the death if someone broke in and tried to murder our families, yet what Bush and Cheney are doing amounts to the same thing, but in a manner that could claim millions of lives - and still the silence is deafening.

How can we, as a progressive community, get people to do more than just "talk" and write about the issues without taking action on our words? Does ANYONE have a suggestion?

William Cormier 

by William Cormier (152 articles, 11 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 418 comments [9 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:42:50 PM

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Ive now spent over an hour on this exercise.

So this is an argument to shut off your computers exc to oranize!!

I am an original SDSer and I Hve a HUGE story to tell, but no one listens.

IMPEACH INDICT imprision.

by ladybroadoak (39 articles, 20 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 394 comments) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:52:59 PM

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with all do respect you are welcome to play girl psychologist if you like. No doubt it took you a long time to do or say anything about Vietnam. Other people had to "convince you that organized murder was a bad thing. Che Guevera and Hillary Clinton, hmm,who is your hero?  Hillary Clinton? Peace and violence are an oxymoron. Spoken like a women who never fought back. I guess the Warsaw ghetto uprising was the same to you as the Bush Cheney war. Hillary is an oportunist and a warmongerette. This discussion has nothing to do with Obama and Hillary. You cannot take it anywhere else. They are both poopey heads. They are both going to sustain the war. They are both gonna do little or nothing to bring democratic principals to America. You probably liked humphrey during the Vietnamese war. Other people had to get down in the street and scream to end that war. I would bet you stood on the sideline scratching your head about who to vote for.. Hooray for Hillary who voted to let George and the gang bomb Iran. Hooray for Obama who forgets to vote. Hooray for you who pontifiacates about the people who take action. You obviously want to be Ghandi without getting your robe dirty. Hillary Clinton and Obama, ivy league brats are both self serving characters. Psychologize all you want about your hero's. The other folks you talk about are beyond your comprehension.I wouldn't be so proud of your candidates. They both are pro violence in "the national interest" They have someone elses children do the fighting for "their interests" It is not the same interests fought for as the other folks you criticize . You lay back and analyse and pshyhcologize while they blow up the earth with their mercenary armies.

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:56:50 PM

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   thataway lady broadoak. Many were against the wu tactics. I still will be damned if I will let these bums sit in judgement. I am sorry you got nudged out of the country. Isn't it amazing that henry Kissassinger is still legitemized. I never thought in my wildest dreams we would regress so far as a nation. I am glad they published your stuff. thank god for the internet.

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:22:35 AM

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  If I only knew how to tie all these different people together who all on on the right track.  There are so many online who I read about.

  The only thing that comes to my mind, is that if the truth off these latter days was widely known, there would be Peace.  Maybe it will help to know that Jacob's Ladder is explained in Dainel 8:9-14, where stars and hosts are trampled by todays establishment.

 One thing is though, when the 7 seals were broken... authority to take Peace from the earth was given out to Govt.s and People too.  At htis point in time... I think it all is a having a purguing, purifing and refining effect on us all.  Even though the over regulating of US, is pissing lots of people off; it will someday be this Nation's Peaceful downfall.

 And don't forget that elctricity and truckers run this Country. 

by Michael Dewey (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 245 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 20, 2008 at 3:12:25 PM

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