As we are now a month out of the most important election of our lifetime and in the wake of the Foley-page scandal, we are starting to see the deception unravel. The Republican Party had done a masterful job of convincing well-intended Christians that they were their party. That the democrats were somehow "Godless" and that the GOP was the moral choice. They recruited a network of religious leaders and pastors and convinced them the importance of convincing their flocks that republican, is what Jesus would do. The Bible says that in the last days many will be deceived and so it goes.
I have spoken with many disappointed evangelicals who finally can see the immense failure the last five years have been. They can take credit for putting a self-proclaimed Christian into the Oval Office and then giving him complete control of Congress in 2002. Given those facts they expected more results. They expected a return to family values. They expected a Christian administration with Christian results. What they got instead was an immoral war that has claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands innocent lives. Instead of taking care of the neediest in society they got the impoverishing of a nation, while the rich got richer. Instead of morality, they got Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff and Mark Foley. On top of the immorality, they got the defense of such behavior, or the minimizing of it, by the party of family values. Suddenly, telling a 16 year old boy that he is making a grown man, our elected representative, "horny", is reduced to "naughty emails." Suddenly a grown man asking a 16 year old boy to send him a picture of himself and commenting on another boy's body, are "vague." Instead of Christian values they got torture as national policy from the morality party. I do not think disappointing quite covers it for Christians.
That is what I have tried to convey to my brothers and sisters. The issue is not that you should be disappointed in the squandered opportunities by the Republican Party over the past five years. That still allows for the possibility that they actually intended to represent Christian values, which any objective analysis would have to admit they did not. The issue is not one of disappointment in our elected leaders but disappointment in ourselves for being deceived into thinking they even agreed with our beliefs to begin with. It has now been revealed that not only did the GOP not share these beliefs but that they have consistently used the Christian base, playing to their beliefs while mocking them in private.
David Kuo is the former special assistant to President Bush from 2001-2003. He is a conservative Christian who worked in the area of faith based initiatives. Mr. Kuo is releasing a book this month detailing the truth behind the Christian-Republican talking points. Early tidbits indicate that Karl Rove often referred to evangelical leaders as "nuts, goofy, ridiculous and out of control." Kuo also alleges that Republican Chairman, Ken Mehlman used taxpayer funds and Kuo's office to stage phony "non-partisan" events that were really designed to outreach Christians in 20 specific areas in this country where tight congressional races were being fought. The result was 19 of the 20 went the way of the republicans. For all the rhetoric from Bush and the GOP about increasing funding for faith based groups, the money was actually going to fund politically motivated faith based initiatives. It was never about Christians and their beliefs but rather, it was about getting the Christians to vote republican to advance the agenda of the GOP. Kuo actually discovered that under Bush the total funding for "compassion" social programs decreased by 20 million dollars.
George Bush had no problem using his Christianity when it suited his political expediency. My Bible however says that we are to look at the fruit that one produces. I am afraid that Christians were so gleeful to hear a politician actually say the name of Jesus Christ in public, let alone call him their favorite philosopher, that they bought the package being sold to them without inspection. Five years later they are left standing at the altar of corporatism wondering how they got there. George Bush is a corporate president and the GOP is the party of corporatism. They have allowed corporations to write legislation and buy policy. They have repealed restrictions on corporations at the expense of individuals. They have decreased regulations to favor corporate America, at the expense of actual Americans. They have allowed the invasion of sovereign nations and presided over the deaths of untold thousands of people, all God's creations. They have allowed the president to ignore over 800 laws, illegally wiretap US citizens, and legalize torture. When the Supreme Court ruled against the president, a Supreme Court that he himself installed, the GOP Congress simply sought to pass laws overruling the Judicial Branch of government. This is the fruit the Republican Party has borne with complete control for five years.
The base that the GOP laughingly admits to having is not the evangelicals, but the "haves and have mores." They represent the true base of the Republican Party. They are the ones who have been served over the past five years. They are who Christian America has been sold out for. They are who Christian America have been deceived for. This week George Bush took to the podium with horrifying economic statistics in his hand and did what only he can do, he lied about them. The Republican Party was handed a 284 billion dollar surplus and have turned it into a 248 billion dollar deficit. They have done this with reckless spending in wars that we have no business being in while handing back billions to the richest Americans; hardly a Christian value. Meanwhile five years after 9-11 there remains a gaping hole in the earth in downtown New York City and the man responsible for it allegedly only comes out once every two years on a video to scare Americans into voting GOP, the party that has done nothing to capture him. Faced with the reality that simply saying the economy is doing well does not mean it is, Bush had the hubris to push again for making his tax cuts for the super rich permanent. The problem is that if they had never been passed, the budget would actually be balanced today.
Jesus Christ preached about taking care of the least in society. The GOP recently showed who they stand for and did so brazenly. The democrats have been trying for years to give the working poor an increase in the minimum wage. While Congress has given itself raise after raise, the working poor continue to live in poverty because of an unlivable wage. So, the GOP finally gave the democrats what they wanted but tied the minimum wage increase to a repeal of the estate tax. The message could not have been clearer to the working poor and middle class; drop dead. In order to give the poor some relief, the GOP would force a repeal of a tax that only affects the absolute richest people in America, their base, their constituency. They did not care about the effect on the deficit or the economy, only that the rich get more. They did not do this quietly; they BRAGGED about it. The dejected democrats had no choice but to kill the bill.
The Christians in America have been used for the past five years. They bought the family values line from people with the moral base of a middle age man discussing masturbation with a 16 year old boy. They sold themselves out for gay marriage and abortion and did not realize that at the same time, they were supporting the party of war and the party of poverty. Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace and came to preach the Good News to the poor, not a Savior who desires endless bloodshed and the deaths of 30,000 children per day for lack of food and clean drinking water. Healthcare is a Christian value (3John 1:2). Being able to support your family is a Christian value (1timothy 5:8). Being able to live in peace is a Christian value (1Timothy 2: 1-2). Being able to enjoy prosperity is a Christian value (Psalm 112: 1-3).
War without end is not a Christian value (James 3: 17-18). Tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the poor are not a Christian value (Matthew 25:45). Not obeying over 800 laws is not a Christian value (Leviticus 19:15). Christians have every right to be disappointed at what has happened over the past five years. Their disappointment however, must be tempered with the reality that they got what they bought into. The Republican Party was never truly siding with them. They were using them. They gather some well intended people who truly have a fear of God and point at the other guy. They tell them that he is to blame for the degradation in society and call them the sinner. Christians too often forget that we are all sinners and without Christ's blood we have no righteousness to boast about. They instill the fear of man for the fear of God. They point to a country far away and say that is where evil dwells when evil dwells in the hearts of all men. A line from a movie encapsulates the strategy of the Republican Party, so forgive my embellishment of this but the Republican Party is not the least bit interested in solving the problems facing us as Christians or Americans. They are interested in two things and two things only; making you afraid of it and telling you who is to blame for it. THAT is how you win elections.
You gather a group of Christians together and tell them that they share their beliefs and then call them "nuts" when the cameras are off. They smile for the photo-ops showing how much they care about family values and then refer to one of their own caught soliciting sexual conversations with a 16 year old boy as merely sending "naughty emails." They tell you that Jesus would only care about abortion and gay marriage while they pillage and rape the economy and environment. They assure Christians that they are their base while laughing at fundraisers with their true base. They ignore the true concerns of Christians and the teachings of Christ for 11 out of every 12 months and then every October, they trot themselves out to swear again at the altar of corporatism that they are the party of morality. Christians have a chance this November to affect the elections yet again, but this time for a truly Christian cause. To send a message that their votes are not for sale to the cheapest whore who will say all the right things and then sell them out as soon as the election is over. Christians can go back to the teachings of the Apostle Paul who reminds us in 1Thesselonians 5:21 to, "Test everything. Hold on to the good."
Christians did not test the words and deeds of the party they bought into. They thought they were getting family values and morality and they ended up with Iraq and Mark Foley. They thought they were getting anti abortion and anti gay rights but they ended up with anti-environment and pro-poverty. The last five years were a Christian mistake borne out of ignorance and the hope that someone would finally take a moral stand for what is right. Now however, the deception has unraveled and as Christians, we have no more excuses. No one can look at the last five years and see a shred of Christianity in the fruit the GOP has borne when they have had complete power. No Christian can walk into the voting booth this November and easily pull the lever. The entire platform has been exposed and Christians must come to the disappointing reality that they have been deceived and they have been used. Awareness is always the first step and it portends a decision this November about what to do with the knowledge they now have. Knowledge without application is useless. I leave you my Christian brothers and sisters with the words of Thomas Jefferson:
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
Test everything my friends, test everything.
Anthony Wade, a contributing writer to opednews.com, is dedicated to educating the populace to the lies and abuses of the government. He is a 41-year-old independent writer from New York with political commentary articles seen on multiple websites. A Christian progressive and professional Rehabilitation Counselor working with the poor and disabled, Mr. Wade believes that you can have faith and hold elected officials accountable for lies and excess.
"Since we are all sinners and no one is better than anyone else...
...who is Anthony to judge GWB or any other deceptive christian or any other person."
The concept of judgement has to do with sin, i have passed no such judgement upon Bush or anyone else as it is not my place. We are however to test everything and be careful about what theology is espoused.
"Hopefully it's obvious that I do judge people. I think it's also obvious that Anthony does too. It's just that, being dogmatic, I think he finds it hard to admit his faults."
I judge people's actions yes, but not their nature when it comes to sin. Judgement i was speaking about is a Biblical one. As for your last comment, you do not even know me but you can figure out from this one exhcange that i find it hard to admit my faults? WOW.
"I would suggest that Anthony 'judged' GWB to be a deceiver."
Of course, he is a proven liar. There is not a scintilla of doubt about that. I have not however judged his sin.
"Be that as it may, I still find it to be the height of arrogance to suggest that your prayers have any effect on my life whatsoever."
Whatever. Look, if i believe that prayer is effective and i CHOOSE to not pray for you, then you should be offended.
"No the Democrats aren't, but that's beside the point. The point remains that when Bill Clinton was president, and our economy was more favorable to a blue collar, middle class guy such as myself, I had all the things I listed that are no longer a part of my life. Now that we are living in the middle of a corporate cutthroat economic system, all I have left is this computer, my beat-up car, and the clothes in my closet. That economy came to pass due to the christians being willingly hoodwinked by DUBYA, the most criminal president ever to disgrace the White House."
I do not understand how you are arguing against me, when i have written over 100 articles about this adminstration, none of them positive. My point stands, the dems are not much better, check out the guy caught with the cash in his freezer.
"And yes, the Diebold machines in Ohio were also another scale tipping point; of that fact there is also no denying. However, that's only one state. Yes, I am sure there were voting irregularities in other states as well, but I think the number of rigged polling places pales in comparison to the number of christians who came out to "bible belt" the vote. Look at the states in which these "morals" amendments appeared. They ALL went red on election night. Coincidence? I think not!"
Diebold stole alot more then Ohio, Florida was clearly stolen as well.
"So is sexism inherent in god's plan? The bible is sexist in the extreme. Women are demonized throughout the pages of the bible. Eve is the cause of expulsion from "paradise". "
Wrong, if you read the Bible, you will see that Adam had full knowledge when he chose to eat the fruit. He tried to blame Eve, but it is called the fall of Man, not woman.
Delilah is the reason for Samson's skinhead look, and subsequent loss of virility."
Actually, Samson's hair had nothing to do with his strength, it was his committment to God, he may have thought it was his hair. Imight add, that the Bible does not excuse Samson, nor do they blame Deliliah. We are responsible for our own actions.
"Mary Magdalene is painted as a harlot, when there are some "censored" texts of the bible that suggest she was, in fact, closer to Jesus than Judas."
Only if you believe Dan Brown.
"If the bible is, as you say, the, "inspired word of God," then you are telling me that sexism is part of god's plan; that he somehow inspires it."
You had much better examples of sexism then those you presented. However, sexism is a term man created, not God.
"As I am sure you are aware, there is a movement afoot in some christian churches for preaching that god wants christians to be rich. This is a direct result of selective biblical interpretation. This sort of interpretation would be impossible if the bible were a coherent, non-conflicted work of prose. There are biblical passages that both support and refute the theology of god wanting his "flock" to be wealthy."
Yes, prosperity preaching. God does not wish that we all are poor, but neither does He intend for all to be rich. I agree that it is beyond unseemly to fleece people by blaming them for their own poverty bassed on sin. That isnot Biblically supported. god loves both, it has nothing to do with wealth. I would however point out that "poor in spirit" has nothing to do with money/wealth.
"The point is, has been, and remains, the bible is a conflicted, self-contradictory book."
There is nothing contradictory about God loving all, regardless of wealth.
"It is arrogant to assume that christians have any sort of moral high ground in any way, shape or form."
I agree.
"My moral code came to me through my parents. Since my father was Catholic, and my mother was Lutheran, it naturally follows that code was most likely lifted from the bible. However, I continue to carry that moral code, and in some cases do it better than many I have met who claim christianity. I am not christian at this point, nor do I expect I will ever again be a part of a religion that condemns me for being who and what I am, i.e. gay."
Then you agree with me. Your morals essentially come from the Bible you dismiss. That is a vast contradiction.
"You can make any assumptions you wish as to whether or not my morals are fruits of biblical study. Since I did study the bible up to the point of almost entering a seminary, there is a likelihood that part of that code is based in the bible. That does not mean I have any place for that book in my life, nor that I hold any part of it to be anything other than what it is: a book of fictional stories with a generally moralistic message, yet fraught with inconsistency and self-contradiction."
Dont personalize it. I am saying that anyone who lives by the basic societal moral codes, have gotten them from the Bible.
"Once again, whether you choose to believe it or not, the simple truth is one does not need to read the bible to have a personal code of morality. Let me reiterate: [saying the bible is the only way to morality] ignores persons who are brought up agnostic, atheistic, pagan, or Muslim who are also moral. While I will grant you that I was brought up in a christian household, many others are not, and live moral lives. This fact cannot be ignored or minimized away. Christianity is not the only way to a moral life, no matter what you may think."
But all morality came from the Bible. That is where the notion of right and wrong came from. You cannot avoid it, nor can you pretend that man somehow came up with this on his own. God decided it.
"I threw YOUR god away."
Fortunately, He does not throw you away. He will be waiting.
"I have many gods and goddesses in my personal pantheon."
I am unsure what to say to that except, where did you get them from?
"So I get to go direct to the source of my spiritual power, and I don't have to pay anyone to do so. Sounds like I am getting the better deal, spiritually speaking."
Except where did your "god" come from? Heck, i can say i believe in Baal, like in the OT, but Baal did not actually exist. God has been reinvented by man for millenia, but that does not make your reinvention any more real then Baal was in the OT.
"So, what does make me "good"?"
God does of course.
"You don't know me from Adam. You can only read my words and see a photograph next to my writings. You are not qualified in any way, shape or form to know whether or not I qualify as "good". To do so brings you seriously close to crossing the line into judging me, and we all know Jesus doesn't like that."
You keep personalizing it. NO ONE IS GOOD. That is how i can know for sure.
""For you, or anyone else to say that I am wrong, or a sinner because of who and what I am is just one more thing about christians (and others who use religion as a means of gay bashing) that I find completely reprehensible. Who died and left you, or others like you, to be MY judge? Even the tome to which you attach importance warns you, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Sigh, judgement keeps getting confused in this thread. Stop personalizing it. Everyone is a sinner. No one is better than the next, that was the point.
"You cannot deny that there are many who call themselves christian who regularly and publicly judge homosexuals. "
I do not deny it, but i am not one of them. They are wrong.
"you must make a choice as to which parts of it you hold sacrosanct, and which parts you don't hold as such."
I do no such thing. I believe it all.
"Clearly, we will never have a meeting of the minds on this issue."
I dont know Pappy, i thought we made some progress and had a decent debate without too much agita.
"Even here, where the debate is sometimes less than classical, matters of faith and belief cannot be debated to the satisfaction of either of the parties. I am sure you will find holes in what I have written. I am sure that when I read your critique of this comment, I will find holes in what you say. Such is the way of things when people choose to debate questions of religion and spirituality."
Agree
Now i see that there was an additional argument between a believer and Pappy. I really do not wish to comment line by line. I would like to thank the person who tried to defend me, although i personally have far less of a problem with Pappy then i had with the other two people who were lying about things i said and believed. Pappy is plenty angry but he has not misrepresneted me. He has misunderstood me, but that is hardly a travesty as i am often confusing for people since i believe in the inerrant word of God and believe that Bush is the worst president in the history of America.
I would ask both pappy and Chris to just take a step back and realize that this is not productive for anyone. I defend my beliefs primarily for those who may be reading, not so much for pappy. There are lives at stake and i do not want there to be any confusion about anything i have written or said. The exchange between pappy and myself was for the most part, civil. That is quite astonishing when you consider that we obviously disagree quite starkly on some key central points, lol. But that is what can happen when two people try to say what they believe and not attack the other, as the other two people in this thread did to me.
So Chris, i appreciate it, but it really was the other two guys and not so much pappy. Pappy's first post was a little over the top which i think he apologized for. Since then, we have agreed to disagree on some points and found some middle ground on others. I feel i have done this without comprimising Jesus or my beliefs. I have tried to respond with love but faith in what i believe.
Thanks to all...
by
Anthony Wade (153 articles, 2 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 621 comments)
on Sunday, October 15, 2006 at 7:31:37 PM
Cutting out the stuff that doesn't pertain to me. The thread that won't die; is it a bad thing or not? I think this is an important topic of discussion. Most people with whom I have this kind of debate run and hide after a while. I am glad that you haven't.
PRAYING FOR ME
Whatever. Look, if i believe that prayer is effective and i CHOOSE to not pray for you, then you should be offended.
I wouldn't be offended in the least. Even as much as I believe in the spirit world, I have to say that it's only reason for existing is to make us feel better. There is not one Iota of proof that prayers do much of anything. One can site all the anecdotal evidence, but that isn't admissible in a court of law. Since it is clear, at least to me, that there is no verifiable, truly evidentiary-based way to prove the existence of the spirit world, why waste time offering up prayers for me?
DEMS better
I do not understand how you are arguing against me, when i have written over 100 articles about this adminstration, none of them positive. My point stands, the dems are not much better, check out the guy caught with the cash in his freezer.
I'm not arguing that point at all. What I said was no matter how the Neo-cons and others continue to bash President Clinton, under his economic policies, I had a job, and all the other things I now lack. Because of a long, unending line of "christian" sheep bleating towards the polls, I am now reduced to the existence I lead.
While I truly believe you that you didn't vote for DUBYA, or any of the other Republican charlatans that now rape our country, the point remains that many christians did fall in lock step behind the Republican Party simply because their preachers told them to do just that. The preachers did that because they were stupid enough to believe the lies of the wolves in tweed clothing. Because the preachers blindly bought the sales pitch, they sold it to their minions. Those minions are obviously not going to question their clergy. It simply won't happen. In this way, we had a christian based routing of the election in 2004.
It's not like there wasn't evidence in 2003 that DUBYA and the rest of the Republicans were liars. The Iraq war had just started, and it was pretty clear there was more than a shadow of doubt about the veracity of DUBYA's claims about both Iraq and Saddam. Valerie Plame was exposed, and there was more than enough evidence to lay this scandal at the feet of the Republicans at least, if not the President.
And yet, the Religious Reich and their trained sheep marched to the polls in record numbers. This is not my fault. While it also isn't yours, you cannot deny that the record turnout in 2004 was a result of the more sheep-like christians blindly playing follow the leader. This is willful ignorance. That willful ignorance now haunts one and all; folks like you and I who did see the writing on the wall, and the others who were too dumb and blind to even see there was a wall in the first place.
Diebold stole alot more then Ohio, Florida was clearly stolen as well.
I will say it again, of that I have no doubt. When someone who contributes large sums of money to a certain political party manufactures voting machines; that obviously constitutes an egregious and clear conflict of interest at the very least. I have never debated or doubted the influence these tainted voting machines had on the election of 2004.
However, the point remains that the voter turnout in 2004 was record setting. The number of christians who came running to the polls was also record setting. I can't help but believe that the number of blind, willingly ignorant christians at the polls is why DUBYA was placed back into the White House. For those people to whine now about how evil the government has "become" pisses me off to no end. The evidence was there in 2004 if they'd have looked, as you did. But no, they MUST follow blindly. That is what I began this debate about in the first place. You might say we have both walked away from that point.
I am sure that you will agree now that perhaps it's time to drop the debate about matters of faith. If this is not your idea, I will answer all the other stuff originally debated, but I think we have gotten WAY off topic.
The long and the short of it is you feel the bible is the unerring word of god. I do not. I feel it is a conflicted, self-contradictory work of fiction. Never will our minds meet on this point. It's really not important anymore in context of what is the more important topic of this debate, whether or not the more willingly ignorant among the christians are the cause of our present state of government.
There is much evidence in existence that the 2004 election was tipped in favor of DUBYA and the Republican party because of the actions of conservative Republicans selling and heaping load of bullshit to the Religious Reich. The preachers of the Religious Reich used their pulpits as a place to spread a political message, something that clearly breaks separation of church and state. In doing this, they mobilized the more brain-dead among the "flock". This translated into a record number of bleating voters. The fact that the evil genius Hot Karl Rove placed gay marriage amendments on ballots in key states only insured an even greater number of sheep would find their way to the polls.
While there is more than enough evidence to prove that Diebold voting machines played a part in the routing of the election of 2004, the record number of christians at the polls cannot be ignored, and should not be minimized. Their sheer numbers stand as proof of the reason that church and state should never be mixed.
As I recall, the original reason I entered into this fray was because of the author saying something about how now many of those christians feel they were betrayed. My point was, is, and shall ever be, "aw, ain't that too bad?"
If they blindly followed the leader, then I don't want to hear their cries and moans. If they didn't care when their preachers were egregiously breaking the separation of church and state in this country, then I have no sympathy for the fallout from the criminal actions of their constitution smashing preachers. If they were dumb enough to believe that god wanted DUBYA in office, then I have not one Iota of sympathy for the fact they now feel betrayed. If the root of all of this was the prevalent idea, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it," then cry on, you morons. Your cries fall on deaf ears, at least as far as I am concerned.
Further, I hold every christian that voted for DUBYA and the Republican party completely responsible for the mess that is our government today. Their actions in the 2004 election not only placed them in the position they are in presently, those actions placed all of us there as well. The time they could have been looking into whether or not their blind voting for the "moral" Republicans was good for the country has long since passed. The time for using their brains as more than ear spacers is also passed.
Now they cry that they were used, betrayed, taken advantage of, lied to, cheated. And all I can say is, UH DUH! Maybe the next time around, they won't be so quick to buy into political cock and bull stories. Of course, with the, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it," mentality that many of them carry, all bets are off.
As to the other guy who stepped in to defend you and bash me, I will say what I said when I answered him. If you don't want to get your wings burned, don't fly too close to the fire. There was nothing I did that was out of bounds. Yes, my first posting here was over the top. It was done that way in order to make people think.
When we sell out our constitution for any reason, we all pay the price. The Republicans clearly worked to blur the separation between church and state, and it worked. Christian preachers banged the pulpit with clearly political sermons, and no one saw the problem. Those who stood up to defend our constitution from this clear violation were branded as godless. Instead of asking whether or not the use of a pulpit for making political statement was right, the sheep like christians sat there blindly and stupidly sucking it all in. Then they went to the polls in record numbers and put the preachers' message into the ballot box.
And now, at this late date, when it is proved those blinded and willingly ignorant christians were used, then it's time for tears. Now with the publishing of Kuo's book, suddenly, it is clear for all to see that the only reason the Republicans cared anything about the christians were for their votes. Now the folly of their ways is shown to them, and they don't like it one bit.
Well, too bad, so sad. Those self-same people were sure dancing for joy when they thought they were getting their Puritan bill of goods. They couldn't get to the polls fast enough to push their draconian rules on the rest of society. It was no harm, no foul back then. "They" knew what was best for this country.
Or did they? Well, if runaway deficit, illegal wars, allowing innocent Americans to die in a natural disaster on our own soil, and moving towards even more armed conflicts are good things, then they knew what was best. If not, then clearly, their blind game of follow the leader has damaged this country.
Whenever the precepts that built this country are taken for granted, or actively worked against, all the people suffer. The separation of church and state was put into the constitution because the founding fathers knew the hell that could come from a united church and state. The collusion between the Religious Reich and the Republicans to blur or completely eliminate this separation caused the problems we have now. All who took part in this routing of the constitution share the guilt.
The Republican Party is guilty because they knew better. They abandoned the constitution because they knew they couldn't win in a fair fight. The Religious Reich are guilty because they were so blinded and drunk with power, they didn't care that their actions were clearly outside the bounds of the separation of church and state. Finally, the christian sheep are guilty. Their crime is not questioning whether or not the bill of goods being sold to them was true. Their crime was not asking questions. Their crime was blindly playing follow the leader, even when there was enough in the news to suggest that things weren't as they seemed.
I hope that this can become a lesson. Those who blindly follow their leaders without even whimpering one question, or acknowledging one doubt get what they deserve when the shit hits the fan. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to bear the fallout from their willing ignorance as well.
Blessed be!
Pappy
by
Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments)
on Monday, October 16, 2006 at 1:12:29 PM
On prayer, if it is my time, don't sweat it. As long as you do not find it offensive that i might pray for you or anyone else.
On the 2004 elections, i think that more people voted dem then you think. I think that the elections were clearly stolen, so to blame Christians, when John Kerry wussed out after only 6 hours is not fair. The dems have had no spine for five years now, content to have some power then rock the boat too fiercely (except some brave patriots like Conyers and Russ Fiengold). You want someone to blame, i think it goes around a bit more than just Christians.
On Clinton, i agree that the country was better off. Clinton benefitted greatly from the dotcom boom, but since he gets so much blame for everything that is not his fault, i have no problem giving him credit for this.
That is about it. If there is anything else feel free to drop a line. Take care of yourself Pappy.
AW
by
Anthony Wade (153 articles, 2 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 621 comments)
on Monday, October 16, 2006 at 6:42:25 PM
I have to respond to this post because as I see it religion, lifestyle, and politics came into play.
I've read many articles from Anthony and Pappy and both of them do an excellent job in conveying their points. Many of which I agree with.
What you don't know is that I'm a Deist. Deists believe that yes our world was created by an extreme being, a god if you will, but as soon as our world was created this extreme being left our world to create more worlds in the ever expanding universe.
With that said, I have to state, knowing that Anthony was a Christian, or Pappy was gay never had a bearing on whether I would post their articles on my blog.
I find it troubling that this blog has reduced itself to the same mind set, the same bickering, that the extreme right thrives upon.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if your religious beliefs differ from mine, I don't care if your lifestyle is different from mine. I'll respect you just the same.
What is important is to respect each and every religion and lifestyle.
I may not agree with christians, muslims, gays, whatever,but I'll support them if they can prove to me their right.
Troubled
by
TroubledTexan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 88 comments)
on Saturday, October 21, 2006 at 5:19:29 PM
First let me be the one to say that this should have been a wake up call from the very beginning. I was raised in a church mostly left leaning if you will. where as a methodist we talked more about social justice, the poor and human rights. I cant even remember a time when any minister that I heard from my side of the aisle made a big deal about abortion or gay marriage. Those values are left to conservative chirstians which to me because of those two issues were allowed to be used in the first place. I dont remember Jesus mentioning any of these two. Was he not a liberal after all he did liberate woman and slaves, spoke up for the poor and those who were dehumanize. I also like to state that although this nation was not founded by christians since Indians were here first some of them have bought into this idea that we can have a chrisitan nation. Without thinking that this nation was never about christianity. Indians were slaughtered, we had 400 years of slavery in this country in which certain scriptures were used to justify it and greed has always been apart ot the problem of this country. Why cant this country just learn how to govern in which no one regardless of their religion or none at all can feel included? I realize that people will make a judgement call base on their religious beliefs but that would mean they would have to really understand what the bible really says and a lot of them dont because they were either taught wrong or they have twisted the bible to suite their own needs. I look at some of these conservative ministers black and white who sold their churches down the drain with this faith based initative which was used with tax payers money. to exclude gays and demonize woman who have had an abortion. mostly they are anti-gay, anti-black and anti woman. I see the Republican Party as the rich white mans party and the democrats as the party for the people. although one is the flip side of the coin as the other side but I would rather be with a party that respects peoples religious beliefs whatever that may be then to make a mockery out of it. I hope we can take this opportunity and talk more about ethics and moral relatvism and how our votes effect others instead of using it based on our religious belifs which at times can be used to hurt others especially if you dont understand that person circumstances(parental notifications, abortion, gay marriage, etc) these issues if manipulated have been used to hurt people with not bring people together. And since the chirsitan right is not the true followers of jesus, I dont feel that the GOP will lose much votes since they make up at least 3040% of the party. I just hope that more people will come out and support more democrats or Green party members or even independenats as long as they are about governing for everyone and not about exclusion. Thanks and I am sorry if you vote republican and were manipulated no one deserves that not even conservatives. I am a pro-choice progressive democrat always will be. maybe some of you conservatives can try that we tend to include everyone with facts and truth. talk to ya soon.
by
chip90043 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 60 comments)
on Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 5:02:35 PM
I was not deceived. I voted dem, even though both sides are corrupt, only one has absolute power and that is never good. I deal with Christian freinds every day who are waking up to the last five years. Thanks for your comments.
by
Anthony Wade (153 articles, 2 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 621 comments)
on Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 6:11:45 PM
Thanks Anthony, for being true to your faith and to a vision of America far more consistent with Jesus' teachings than the deluded souls who support Bush envision. I know it hasn't been easy at times. And thanks for helping ME understand this realm so much better, though I know I have a ways to go.
by
Rob Kall (858 articles, 3987 quicklinks, 343 diaries, 1821 comments)
on Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 10:06:09 PM
You took my writing early on when i needed a platform. We have learned alot from each other.
Jesus is love, redemption, and forgiveness. Too many Christians forget that in their pursuit of worldly matters. It has been a long ride these past three years. I am praying that stability and sanity is restored this fall and congressional oversight will come back to this country.
Thanks for your support and the work you have put into making Opednews as successful as it is today. Thanks for listening to me as well.
AW
by
Anthony Wade (153 articles, 2 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 621 comments)
on Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 10:25:06 PM
I'm going to have to write here in full support of Pappy, as so many of you moderates are condemning him. Whether or not Mr. Wade personally denounced Bush from the beginning is beside the point made by Pappy, that being the blatant power-mongering that is integral to the christian ideology. Pappy is a homosexual, I am bi and an atheist, together we create the absolute worst thing that christians can ever hope to see, and we both, according to your bible, should be put to death, denied salvation and sent to hell to be burned in our personal holocaust for all of eternity.
It is precisely this moderate ignorance about the truth of religious fundamentalism that has crippled the nation. And the arrogance born out of such ignorance in thinking that somehow you have the truly true understanding of the bible. Jesus may have preached forgiveness and love, but he also came only for "the lost sheep of the house of Israel", condemned the gentile woman to eat the scraps from the Jewish table, and preached that brought "not peace but the sword." This type of selective reading is precisely what shows the religious ideology to be ridiculous and merely a tool for the power-hungry, for it can be used by anybody who wishes to justify their thinking.
This country got what they deserve for the past 5 years because in a nation where over 60% believe in the imminent return of Jesus in the next 50 years, what does it matter that the environment or the poor are ignored. All that matters is being right with god. Christians might be disgusted with the republican sex-scandal but do you really think the so-called moral majority will support a democrat who wants to give homosexuals the right to marry? HA!
by
David Teachout (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 21 comments)
on Friday, October 13, 2006 at 10:27:50 AM
Pardon me for stating the obvious, but you got exactly what you deserve. I feel not even the slightest bit of sympathy for christians who now wail and moan about being the victims of government lies.
The evangelicals and others preached for Republicans at the pulpit. Clearly this was a flagrant violation of the separation between church and state. At the time, few of your ilk were even thinking that was a problem. "Oh, gee, at last, we will have our one nation, under god," was the prevailing thought. No one even thought to care about whether or not what was happening was in accord with the constitution of the United States. That was beside the point.
Now, taste the bitter pill that the willing ignorance of the christian mindset has wrought! If someone can make themselves look like the height of moral decency, you vote for them without question. Do you take the time out of your busy prayer schedule to find out whether you are being hoodwinked? Oh hell no, perish the thought. Republicans would NEVER lie. Yeah right, and Scary Jerry Falwell isn't a closet case.
Puh-leez!
In the time that warnings were being spoken from everywhere but the right, what did you do? You ignored them. You assumed that anyone who wasn't sitting on the right was automatically on the left. The left stands for gay rights, the right to choose, and other "immoral" issues which leave such a bad taste in the christian mouth. You didn't want to hear what the "left" was saying because we couldn't possibly be both "immoral" and right at the same time. If we weren't waving flags, praising god, apple pie, and Chevrolet, or goddess forbid we were speaking against the ignorance of "intelligent design", then we were all sinners, immoral, and full of shit.
You forgot that not only was the left warning, the middle was also in there joining the chorus. You didn't want to hear the middle because they weren't on the right. The voice of moderation went unheard because you allowed the right to tell you that if it wasn't their words, it was wrong.
And now, we all have to live in the country that the willing ignorance of American christians wrought. When the words of more moderate and rational christians could have been heard, nothing was said. No one stood up to challenge the charlatans that were obviously changing money in the temple. As long as Crystal Catherdrals and Mega-churches could be constructed, who cared if their message was anything but Christ-like? No one!
And now you cry because at long last, you have had the wool pulled from over your eyes. Now, like I have had to do for the past five years, you have to look upon a world of lies and hypocrisy. The picture isn't so pretty, and now it's time for the crocodile tears to fall. Charade you are!
So now you feel deceived and used. Isn't that too bad? I have watched for five years as the American dream has been torn from my hands. I tried to speak on it, but my voice went unheard. I tried to warn folks, but what would a sinning homosexual such as myself know about anything? Further, since I am such a sinner and so immoral, who cares if my dreams, my hopes, my aspirations, my health, my sanity, and my ability to make a liveable wage went flying out the window? That was just god's judgment on my sinful, immoral ways. I was getting what I deserved because I didn't accept Jesus as my personal savior. What's worse, I am a practicing pagan; a godless heathen getting his just desserts? No harm, no foul.
Well, now you sit on my side of the fence. How does it feel? Do you feel used? Hmm. Me too. Do you feel slighted? Me too. Do you feel deceived? Me too. Gee, now you know how I feel. Isn't that nice?
In the words of an old classic jazz tune that's been around for a very long time, "Now you say you're sorry. You cried the whole night through. Well you can cry me a river, cry me a river. I cried a river over you!"
Blessed be!
Pappy
by
Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments)
on Friday, October 13, 2006 at 1:56:47 AM
