to avoid church altogether. 

by richard (0 articles, 5 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 1359 comments [400 recommended, 8 rejected]) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 4:02:21 PM

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My prediction is that Romans 13 will deceive many Christians. They will

support an evil government regime because they interpret Romans 13

to support any government. What they forget is that Jesus was  vocally

in direct opposition to the government and religious leaders of his day.

He submitted to the "authorities" of the day, but he did not support them

in the least. In fact he said that the religious leaders were "full of dead men's bones". Possibly the equivalent of our modern day "dead man walking" phrase.

      So there is a big difference between submission and support!

Wake up Christians! Realize that Romans 13's message has been twisted

and taken out of context to deceive you!

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 1094 comments [65 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 6:37:18 PM

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One of the primary concepts of all organized religions is the control of the minds of their followers. A true believer must never use logical deductive reasoning to analyze what is presented as the precepts of their faith but take as empirical fact what their leaders promulgate even though science and logic say otherwise. The present controversy between Intelligent Design believers and proven science is a perfect example of this.

The Far Right Wing Christian Conservatives have worked hard to force their beliefs on us all even to the point of using their influence to control this administration and Congress in an effort to subjugate the populace to their control. When a candidates position on abortion is just as, and even more, important than their positions and proposals on other issues things have already gone to far. It is understandable that this administration that is undoubtedly influenced by the Christian Far Right would make an effort to precondition the clergy to support any nefarious actions they intend to take if and when the opportunity presents its self. They are depending that the believers will follow their leaders and those leaders will follow them. The separation of church and state are just words to this administration and their backers.

by walley (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 108 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 7:10:51 PM

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THIS government is established by the Constitution and the people -- says so right here:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 8:35:30 PM

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Since when did Bush or any of his Gestapo give a damn what is in the constitution? They have ignored it ever since taking power and until the general populace wakes up they will continue to do so. They most likely want Blackwater, with the help of the Christian Far Right, to write us a new one when the axe falls.

by walley (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 108 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 9:03:01 PM

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but the rest of us should know better. And that includes the clergy. This is not a theocracy and the government is not established by god!

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 9:46:18 PM

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….”that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it.”

by Judy Ramsey (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 93 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 7:49:24 AM

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You really think those words mean anything anymore.

That is why your government is afraid of an up rising against it.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 1:08:57 PM

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Romans 13 is our best defense against fascism.  Under the US Constitution, the "governing authorities" who must be obeyed are We the People.  The president and Congress are public servants, answerable to We the People at the polls.  If this understanding is spread far and wide, the American citizenry will not knuckle under.  In fact, the clergy need to be told of this as well, so they won't cooperate with a fascist government.

 Let's not throw the Bible out, let's use it.  Jesus was for the poor and meek, not the rich and powerful.  America fulfills the dream, at least theoretically, of the value and dignity, the equality, of every human being. 

In the name of the Prince of Peace, Carol Wolman

by Carol Wolman (230 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 113 comments [17 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 9:59:12 PM

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Forget the bible. This country is governed by the Constitution and the Rule of Law not what is written in the bible or any other religious tome.  The founders of this nation were astute enough to include the separation of church and state into the constitution so any interpretation of what is written in the bible has no place in any discussion of political policies or their implementation.  One only has to look at what is happening in the Middle East and else ware around the world to understand why the separation of church and state is included in the constitution.

by walley (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 108 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 11:33:17 PM

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Dear Dr. Wolman,

I found your article (also in this OpEd issue) moving and apt; I myself come from a Christian background (Episcopal).  In my adult life, however, I have moved away from being an apologist for Christianity.

It is tempting to use the words of Christ upon the battleflag of forces opposing the Christian Right.  However, it seems to me that to quote anything from scripture these days is to skate on very thin ice; there is much treacherous water right under the skater.  If the ice be thought of as ethical, spiritual truth, the treachery of misinterpretation is waiting for the crack opened up by the poor skater.  Sorry for the mixed metaphors!

I found this true as an rebellious adolescent, arguing religious meaning with my fundamentalist grandmother.  Any challenging point I would make would be squelched by her zealous quoting of something else in the Bible that counteracted what I was saying.  If she could not call up a specific counter-quote, she would smugly retreat into "everything in the Bible is the Truth of God; I know it is, and there's nothing left to say".  A dead end for me.

So if Christ or an apostle is used as a weapon, any number of other passages can be found -- and brandished -- for defense of some bizarro fundamental claim.  The Bible is chockablock full of ancient taboos, odd laws, and declamations all too easily taken out of context to bolster dubious standpoints.

I further hold that Rightwing Christianity is posturing political cant, and the Prince of Peace's genuine golden messages (as quoted by you in your article) will be ploughed under quick as you can say "BushCheney"; it will be ignored; it will not be covered in The Almighty Press.  The folk who most need to use their heads about all of this do not listen to NPR, they are the disciples of FOX NEWS and their preachers.

But you know -- it certainly is worth a try.  Christ would not have turned away from these scandalous administration hypocrits and Pharisees.  In Nazi Germany, there were in fact a few strong, fearless, brave pastors who stood up to Hitler; with one exception (he was killed slightly later) they were all eliminated straightaway, if I am not mistaken.  I doubt whether many people even remember their names or their courage today. 

What might have happened had there been more such men of the cloth? 

by Jami (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 25 comments) on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 1:02:25 PM

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When your government went to the electronic polls, you lost your ability to control it.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 1:11:44 PM

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should not even be talking to the clergy much less recruiting them as government agents. Any clergyman who goes along with this is committing treason. Forget Romans -- it's the Constitution and human rights which count.

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 11:18:04 PM

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I could not agree with you more.

by walley (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 108 comments) on Sunday, Aug 26, 2007 at 11:41:41 PM

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more Americans could quote the Constitution and its clauses with the familiarity with which they quote the Bible.

Perhaps a small nightly bedtime reading from the Constitution by parents to children is warranted - can't see it catching on though unfortunately - not in time anyway. 

The Bible contains some interesting stories that are useful as metaphor and anecdote but game theory suggests that karma/nature can be a real harder "b*tch" and we better not leave to much to the benevolence of the universe that we can do something about ourselves.

One place I have found game theory to depart from the purported 'teachings of Jesus' is in the principle of tit for tat.  Teaching that if a man steals your coat offer him also your shirt, or if he hits you on the right cheek offer him also your left, is actually a great way to encourge clothes stealing and cheek hitting.  It increases the incidence of predatory behavior in the community.

The clothes stealers and cheek hitters (predators), positively reinforced for anti-social behaviour, go teach it to their children.

Tit for tat suggests that we always act cooperatively when we first meet another but then when our cooperative overtures are met with competitive or exploitative behavour that we seek equivalent proportional payback - one tit for one tat - then we forgive and go back to cooperation until the next default. This teaches the defaulter and exploiter that there is a cost to them for their actions rather than a reward.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 11:50:01 PM

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With regard to religious institutions being used as instruments of the state to control the larger population, http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com speaks my mind in part 1. 

The other two parts, re: 9/11 and 20th century warmongering deceits are more contemporary and more popular, but the section on religous organizations is also an essential piece of deprogramming for those who are still stuck in the cult of corporate media's worldview.

by Marcus B (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 27 comments) on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 11:14:12 AM

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The (phony) Christian nationalists do have a militant wing. It comes under different names, but the most notable is Blackwater.

by Willard Russell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 41 comments) on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 8:29:21 AM

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Your constitution is ignored by your government. Your government is the rule of law. Even jurors are irrelevant, because your government controls what they get to here or see.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 1:15:58 PM

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I used to carry around your constitution. I had a small paper back version from the Cato Institute. It was only $5, about what a cup of coffee costs these days.

I found in your country that the individual people that really belied in it were as odd and as rare as the people that think Elvis is still alive.

Your government only recognizes the parts that give it power.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 990 comments [34 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 1:26:28 PM

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