I think the Palestinian people have been betrayed by the Hamas leadership, just as surely as our USA leaders betrayed us. How can the Palestinian people hope for peace when they have, as one of their leaders, a man, like Rayan, who sends his own son as a suicide bomber? And if they see his doing that as brave or noble, what kind of values are they basing their decisions upon?

Israel's leaders are horribly wrong. But so are Hamas. 

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 4:35:32 PM

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After reading your previous article, comments, and interview it seemed you were in the bag for Israel.  Apparently not so.  As you still lean a good deal their way you offer a solution that can be found acceptable by both sides.  Now if we could just get some more of that by all parties involved we'd be good.

by Joe Bechtold (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 6:42:08 PM

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Make no mistake: that is what is occuring. I am disgusted permanently with Israel, after seeing the photos of the dead Palestinian children at URUK.NET. I was born in the same year that Israel was born; I will never believe anything that nation says again, after the past seven days. DISGUSTING!

by Stephen Fox (96 articles, 3 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 802 comments [33 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:12:47 PM

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please add information that respects the fact that you are part of community.

I did read Lendman's article. There's a lot of truth in it. But what specifically do you find fault with in my article. 

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:26:21 PM

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Mutual Protection Rackets.  Hamas and Israel enjoy their dance of death.  Settlements and embargo were the pretexts for rockets.  Rockets were the pretext for conquest.  Everybody loves liars, bullies, and crooks.  I support Hamas because Israel is so clearly bad.  It doesn't mean I think Hamas is good.

by John Hanks (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1760 comments [39 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:23:39 PM

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Israel will continue to attack until it has all of the territory afforded the Palestinians in the UN Resolution 181 in 1948.  After they have taken that they will continue to manufacture "enemies" to attack.  Now it is Hamas, not long ago it was Hezbollah, before that PLO, and on and on...unfortunately, the US has gotten on that same train with the advent of al Qaeda.  We have reacted the same as Israel.  When 9/11 happened, we announced it was al Qaeda and we immediately illegally invaded Afghanistan, killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children -- none having a thing to do with 9/11 (in fact none of the alleged hijackers was even from there, most never having even been in the country).  Now Israel uses Hamas as the excuse to massacre thousands of innocent men, women, and children under the guise of "retaliation" against a 'group'. 

by Dennis Kaiser (20 articles, 0 quicklinks, 35 diaries, 730 comments [137 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:32:48 PM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6yA1SDF0I&feature=related  i love this guy...he clarified a sequence of events for me...think about it...the 911 conflagration of calculated blame (if it was an inside job as i am convinced it was) was to set up an antimuslim (also known as antisemite as well)  mindset to go after the arab palestinians having public concensus to not question it....so then the spin on this hamas reaction to systematic deprivation in this israeli operated gazan open air concentration camp,  well, it is all set up in the same way that hipaa laws went into effect before aspartame/fluoride/msg poisoning started to be noticed...so that people just can't connect the dots....hmmmm

by karmacounselor (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 106 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:15:55 PM

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Rob,

An interesting article, and interview with Rabbi Learner, but I think we are being "punked" by both sides. There are nothing but "rabid mad dogs" on either side of that conflict. No one wants peace, so what we do or say does not really matter. There is enough shame, treachery, hatred, atrocities and wanton killing to go around. There are no moral heroes in the Middle East, only moral pygmies (meaning no disrespect to Pygmies), and Israel at least has a history and experiences where it should know better. 

No one doubts that Hamas is willing to fight until the last Palestinian is sacrificed, nor that Israel has compromised the very moral integrity upon which the very nation of Israel was founded by its calculated but wanton excesses. 

All civilized countries should just walk away from that mess. There is nothing to be done until the sides decide that two rabid dogs biting each other can do nothing but further infect themselves. I am tired of being "punked." So to hell with the Middle East! Where is Michael Vick when we need him?

by Herbert Calhoun (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 54 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 6:09:21 PM

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Taking sides in this fight is worse than useless.

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:07:52 PM

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Do you have a URL for Stephen Lendman's article today?

by Sheila Samples (54 articles, 6167 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 597 comments [28 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 7:21:54 PM

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I found it...right here on OpEd...sorry...

by Sheila Samples (54 articles, 6167 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 597 comments [28 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 7:23:57 PM

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The West did not create the state of Israel for no good reason. (Well, actually, it was a terrible reason, that had absolutely nothing to do with the propaganda about reparations for the Holocaust, which was still 15 years in the future when the process started, but the CFR and AIPAC would disagree.) The West will not leave this situation alone because it has too much of a stake in the "proceedings." Two additional factors also need to be considered. In a dysfunctional family where abuse or trauma has been perpetrated, the victim will turn into an abuser some percentage of the time. (Statistics vary, many of us of course do exactly the opposite and work to protect the victims of family trauma and many just lead lives of quiet denial.) Dysfunction occurs at the macro level, however, and in a pathologically hierarchical society (which is exactly what the West is), the poop, as they say, just keeps rolling downhill, creating dysfunction at the family level.

So let's look at this from the macro level. You have one group of people descended by one generation (if that) from the Holocaust, the ultimate exercise in pathological atrocity, and another descended from those who were violently expelled from their own lands in the West's unending quest to grab strategically located land because it treats the world as its very own Risk gameboard (and space too, but that's a different discussion). Those who reacted to these events as an adult survivor of child abuse who becomes a batterer does, became the hawks on both sides. Meanwhile the majority on both sides, while usually in denial (a typical human response), when forced to face the dysfunction, will repudiate it. Unfortunately, in this case, as has been true for decades, it takes death and mayhem for most of these people to appreciate the suffering they bring on themselves by failing to understand the pathological dynamics of trauma. (The same could be said of our history, recent and otherwise.) Those caught in the middle blame the other side, the rest wring their hands.

To the credit of many in Israel, they really did vote for Livni because her platform was based in part on peace talks. Unfortunately she only received a plurality, but could not form a coalition, so ended up foreign minister instead of prime minister pending the next level of elections. She is, however, acting in a manner that can only be described as that of a political appeaser, contravening the apparent will of a near-majority of Israelis.

While I agree that we solve nothing by declaring one side or the other as bad, we must also remember that Israel shut down Gaza THREE YEARS AGO in a siege that precluded even the most essential humanitarian supplies. (I personally think this most recent round of horrible goes back to Jenin, actually, Israel has "unwittingly" turned Palestinian areas into concentration camps - with pogroms built right in, as if their internal abusers - the Nazis - are still calling the shots.  Oh, wait, the grandfather of our current president was an honest-to-God Nazi sympathizer who should have hung.  One wonders how history might be different if old Prescott wasn't a member of the Old Boyz Club and had to face the music regarding his treasonous activities during WWII.  Oh well, it is what it is.) This is not unlike our sanctions against Iraq before we invaded it. Hamas is STUPID STUPID STUPID, and is playing right into the hands of the propaganda kings stumping for the Israeli hard-liners. And I suspect we all agree on the violence, it accomplishes nothing positive, in this case, not even politically. (If one could even consider violence ever a positive accomplishment.) Hamas is likely to be political history now, which is a good thing. (If wishes were horses, they would have acted like real political players when elected, instead of thugs, and it would have been nice to see the world support their democratic election. But then again, it would have been helpful for them to accept that they have to live with Israel, whether they like it or not. Some things are lost to history forever, and a pre-Israel Palestine is one of them. It is what it is.

It would be nice to see the Palestinian and Israeli peace activists working together to create an alternative poltical coalition, because Fatah ain't worth the powder and shot to blow it to hell, either. Corrupt to the core. The Palestinians need a decent political faction to turn to, and Fatah ain't it.

One final comment, the U.S. never supports democratically elected governments because strongmen are easier to control and easier to pay off to ensure that our corporate interests in the given country are protected. This pattern has existed pretty much since the disgusting Monroe doctrine, which predated our obsession with the Middle East and the resources to be found there by our corporate interests.

by ear (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 49 comments) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 7:39:27 PM

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... I think simple guilt plus the UK & France wanting to be rid of the land there once and for all was pretty much it.

by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:45:13 PM

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bad guys in this whole mess .. from the very beginning... which include the U.S., GB and the leadership in Israel. 

It is disingenuous to try to equate both sides by crying that they are all to blame ... yes, that's true in a trivial sense .. but there are clear aggressors here , folks that want to possess what others have...

And, in the end, they are they same forces that are destroying America now. Not AIPAC etc. (though that organization is reprehensible and plays a substantive role in the obscene symbiosis between our countries) but the powers that place these events in process. Powers within Israel play a role in this, I assume, but I also present that powerful elements within the 'west' predominate and really call the shots, among whom, some are Jewish but many or most are probably not. 

The history of the Palestinian v Israel conflict is a substantial reason underlying social and individual motivations to fight but it also is likely a tool used to generate overall conflict and dissent. By those who would benefit from conflict and dissent. And use those for control.

The false issue again, is the focus upon conflict between ethnic/religious/national groups. Whether the original conflict was manufactured or simply taken advantage of. I wager that the folks who manipulate these processes are not loyal to ethnic, religious or national ideas.. They manipulate 'the above' and they create conflicts to achieve their own ends; strategically and tactically. Although the conflict between Palestine and Israel is very real in one sense, there is that error in thinking this an historical event defined as just a Palestinian v Israel conflict in whatever aspect - because we then ignore the puppeteers that make these things happen. And searching to uncover the who, what and why of their efforts.

Obviously, this notion is not original with me, though I think it an obvious truth .... simply do a search and a winnowing. Always focus on the CIA, Mossad and MI6. The U.S., GB and Mossad history of crimes is extensive and it argues that those three should always be, at least, considered when looking for culprits in just about any conflict in the world.

Ask for whom do these folks work? 

by richard (0 articles, 5 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 1359 comments [400 recommended, 8 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:08:10 PM

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His analysis didn't mention the oil factor; but that's a big part of this dynamic too.   Obviously, the west, and the whole petrochemical industrial complex can't have a "Middle East" that is comprised of real democracies.

The combination of dictatorships and instablilty there is just fine with big oil so long as the cash flows "freely".   The rivers of blood are meaningless to these monsters.

And let us not forget how much the MI complex enjoys all this horror.   For them  cash flow *is* blood flow.

Israel can't kill it's way to "peace" and "security"; not unless thay can, literally, annihilate every human being outside it's borders.....and even then, they would eventually have to kill of the Muslims living there.....and then the liberals and the conservatives would have a civil war no doubt.

One would think that, of all the people's of Earth, that the Israelis would most clearly understand that indiscriminately killing the innocent is not a winning tactic.  

For every Palestinian they kill now; they will have bred a hundred more willing to die just to shed a drop of Israeli blood.  Killing all "your enemies" just makes more people hate you to death.   Duhhhhh!

The self reinforcing cycle of blind revenge is just plain stupid.....and is not sustainable.   It can only end up with the extinction of all of humanity if it is allowed to persist.

Clearly there are "leaders" on BOTH sides who perversely profit from the status quo.....and clearly there are commercial interests that also derive "profit" from the bloody status quo.

Of course a real peace would make both the Paledtinians and the Israelis far more prosperous and far more powerful.

The "power" to kill is not a power, it is a malignant pathology.

As for the crazed hate filled people who think they can ever militarily defeat Israel.....even if their wildest wet dream were to come true and they managed to somehow detonate a WMD in Israel....the well automated response would be an unleashing of (I bet) at *least* 300 nuclear weapos that would likely kill off a billion Muslims for starters and that would contaminate the whole damned planet and cause billions more cancers for generations to come.   It's called "The Sampson Option".  (for more on that click here ) the only real chance for a way out of this is for a major power to show progressive/transformative/muscular leadership.

Obama has the potential to be one such leader....but I suspect that Barack will only follow where the progressives of the USA force him to follow.  He's too "pragmatic" to stick his own neck out very far.

So long as AIPAC and the right wing fundies who are praying for an Aramgeddon in the ME to happen so that they can get "raptured" are more powerful that we progressives......the current tragectory ain't likely to change.

The biggest real difference between Bush and Obama is that Obama *can* be reached by a truly positive and powerful mass movement of, say, 80 million progressive activists.....and Bush wouldn't give a crap. Somewher in the depths of his being there is a genuinely progressive decent humane being buried in the edifice of the Obama machine.......but it's well dug in.

It's time to realize that *WE* need to be the leaders we've been waiting for.

by Nick Lento (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:49:37 PM

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we continue to find that Israelis ignore the one key element to Peace........the one that continues to fall on deaf ears.........the one that will get you more BS commments than any other reasoning for finding Peace in the Middle East.........and that's OCCUPATION !!!!!!............Their dance around this issue continues year after year.......more death, turmoil and destruction......lies and deception.....stalling for more time to allow REAL desperation to set in on the Palestinians............the concept is working remarkably well........It's so easy now for them to find a clich'e to justify their evil doings...........

Promises after promises, road map after road map, resolution after resolution and Oslo after Oslo...............and now 50 years later the Palestinians find themselves in dire desperation.........Just where the Isrealis want them...........They are so close to consuming the whole Land of the Palestine that they can taste it..............Their religious dreams are coming true.........."We are the Chosen and we deserve it"........."Fk the rest"..........

My heart goes to the Palestinians and I don't care what anybody says from Obama on down........I spent two years in the Palestine watching when no reporter could stay there more than a half day pass.....I ate, slept, worked and shed tears with the Palestinians and watched them lose their lands, homes and their lives because none of our Leaders had the b-lls to say NO!!...........I know what the Israelis are capable of and how ruthless and bloodthirsty they are to have all of the Palestine...........The Israelis hated me for having that opportunity to see first hand what others couldn't see.............

All of these pro-Israeli comments you see here are baseless.........Their ideology of "what belongs to who and who belongs to where" was inspired by greedy forces of mixed natures and now rest on the shoulders of the desperate.....................The Palestinians............ 

by Ernest (0 articles, 8 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 221 comments [40 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:07:21 PM

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Ear's comments must and should be read -- a few times if needed -- because he shows us how to look at the present tragedy (we can call it terrorism since it terrorizes, and kills, mostly innocent people -- and will generate mor terrorism from the other side). HOW is in the context of history.

Nick Lanto's contribution is also very sharp, as the 3 players he mentions at the end  have clearly been involved in many if not ALL conflicts in the world. The BANKERS should be added to the list: who else profits from conflicts? The military industrial complex is financed by bankers. Recessions - hated by bankers- are often ended by wars, or a huge military buildup...

Let's ad that the bombing by Israel of  a tunnel between Egypt and Gaza (bringing well needed food to starved Gaza residents) was instrumental in starting rocket fires. And, yes indeed Israel had violated the cease fire many times...

by crispy (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 43 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:20:36 PM

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Mr Kall, I note your comment:

"The Palestinian people should arrest and prevent those who fire rockets into Israel, giving Israel the excuse it needs to hit back ever so much harder. To do that, they need to elect people who promise to work with a Ghandian approach.  "

 Do you have any suggestions about how to ease this strategy into action, given the further destruction of police stations and other infrastructure in the past week, and a lasting, inhuman embargo which arguably explains (but does not in my opinion excuse) the violent response of some Palestinians?

An interesting perspective can be gained by looking at the wikipedia article on Demographics of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

"Israeli demographic policy
“As Israel's continued existence as a "Jewish State" relies upon maintenance of a Jewish demographic majority, Israeli demographers, politicians and bureaucrats have treated Jewish population growth promotion as a central question in their research and policymaking. Non-Jewish population growth and immigration is regarded as a threat to the Jewish demographic majority and to Israel's security, as detailed in the Koenig Memorandum."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenig_Memorandum

To me, it looks as though the intent of Israel's response to the both Gaza and the rest of Palestine is still driven by the need to assure that Israel will remain a state with a majority of Jews.  Elections come and go, political leaders craft their strategies and duck the consequences, but the Israeli political landscape seems to remain much the same, in the long run.  Can this be a consequence of policy and intents as exemplified by the Koenig Memorandum? 

To me, such a policy helps explain Israeli motives regarding the report below, from B'tselem:

" ... the [Israeli] military bombed the main police building in Gaza and killed, according to reports, forty-two Palestinians who were in a training course and were standing in formation at the time of the bombing. Participants in the course study first-aid, handling of public disturbances, human rights, public-safety exercises, and so forth. Following the course, the police officers are assigned to various arms of the police force in Gaza responsible for maintaining public order.

Another example is yesterday’s bombing of the government offices. These offices included the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Labor, Construction and Housing. An announcement made by the IDF Spokesperson’s Office regarding this attack stated that, “the attack was carried out in response to the ongoing rocket and mortar-shell fire carried out by Hamas over Israeli territory, and in the framework of IDF operations to strike at Hamas governmental infrastructure and members active in the organization.”
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20081231_Gaza_Letter_to_Mazuz.asp

The B'Tselem article clearly explains Israeli aggression in Gaza in terms of international humanitarian law; the same principles, it makes clear, apply to Hamas.

If we look at Israel's disproportionate and dysfunctional response to Hamas and other groups firing wildly inaccurate rockets in their general direction, we can only wonder what causes such desperate, indiscriminate punishment in return. 

Where does the escalation end?  What sort of response could we anticipate from Israel if rockets started falling in the vicinity of Dimona?  How much harder can the Israelis hit back?

by Idaho Boy (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:39:10 PM

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Whether we like it or not, all Americans have already taken sides: our tax dollars fund the Israeli military.

Tell President Obama to slash military spending at least 70% and invest the savings in education, health care, preventing foreclosures and developing green energy here at home.

Sign the petition for a Secure Green Future from GreenChange.org:

click here

by David Schwab (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 54 comments [25 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 12:52:23 AM

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way to say it brother

by TRADESMAN (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 335 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:36:03 AM

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"Well they'll punk you when your drivin' in your car

They'll punk you when your playin' your guitar...."

The Israel/Palestinian issue is just part of a larger agenda, a greater global strategy. This synthesis can be tracked for several hundred years if one understands the architecture and dynamic of political power.

We have entered a "terminal stage" in this process as it speeds up and becomes a vortex pulling everyone into a new paradigm; the end "product" of this synthesis.

Time to wake up everybody, the clock is ticking!

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 3:07:40 AM

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"everybody must get punked".. you made me laugh at that in spite of the serious discussion.  I too was thinking of that great Dylan song when I saw the title.

 Indeed William, the entire world is getting punked by the powers that rule.... the one world shadow govt that has stolen all our money and is now breathing down our necks ready to steal all our liberties.

  And yet, we are all still here arguing which "side"is to blame. ~sigh~

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 7:08:28 AM

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why why--read the bible-- but read it over and over till it hits you in the teeth as to why--god does not favor the jews today for they refused to bend the knee to jesus--BUT he does favor the land they are on because of a promise he made long long ago--the land is held for the real jews -the ones that hold jesus as king. the palistinians know this in their history-they can beat their heads against the wall as much as they like, they will never posses this land they held once, but never again--its a symbol of a promis given and kept---now they fought for thousands of years, do you think it will end now?? go to THE TRUMPET .COM---GET REAL ANSWERS--TRUTHFUL ONES--or beat your heads against your walls

by TRADESMAN (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 335 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 10:18:19 AM

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Skiidogs, whoever you are! (1) Jhvh did promise to the Jews a homeland after their escape from Egypt under the leadership of Moses and Aaron, provided they worshiped the Almighty and Him only. What did they do as soon as they reached the Sinai, during the days when Moses was called by JHVH to receive the Ten Commandments? They built a golden calf with gold they had escaped with! As a punishment they were made by JHVH to roam around LOST in the Sinai for four decades plus! (2) Then they entered Philistine/Palestine with 'force' and could only get in after massacring and destroying the Philistines under a so-called Prophet. This Prophet had no written TITLE DEED to Palestine, not even written as part of the 10 Commandment Tablets received by Moses. (3) The longest that any of their kingdoms, Judaea and Samarria, lasted was 400 years (4) Before and after these 400 years they were defeated by their neighbors, removed from Palestine and enslaved by them; the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans, NEVER by the Palestinians.(5) Despite all this, they are still claiming, day in and day out that such a TITLE DEED exists and is still valid after several thousand years, to which they had lost all rights by worshipping the golden calf, practicing usury and going against the Torah. (6) They keep coming back to Palestine and keep getting thrown out of it for the sake of this spurious TITLE DEED. (7) If they have it, let the World see it. (8) Whenever they are 'empowered' in Palestine, they forget to deal with their neighbors in the manner neighbors should be treated. Instead they get lost in their RHETORIC of being the Chosen Race holding JHVH's TITLE DEED! (9) How many times do they want to be proven wrong?    

by syed mahdi (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 92 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:45:40 AM

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 You ask, as if rhetorically and yet your self made answer is still one of utter  insanity advising more insanity.

There is NOTHING in these three "holy books" that contain anything but profound contradiction. Everyone picks and chooses which of the sides the schizo book they like and run with it as if they can show an "authority" by pointing to these cartoon stories.

It's all BS!

____________________________________________\\][//__

"It is no measure of ones health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

-Krishna Murti

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 4:42:01 PM

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80 rockets in one day . . you expeditiously forgot to mention THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of rockets sent since the cease fire about 6 months ago!  THOUSANDS folks!  If we had thousands of rockets sent into our backyard, you better believe we have the right to defend ourselves AND eliminate the one sending THOUSANDS of rockets, targeting innocent civilians!

by Kahleeka (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:33:31 AM

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 Yes Katleen and; "you expeditiously forgot to mention" 60 years of oppression and terror that has driven the Palestinian into a huge open air prison, where they are now being bombed like sitting ducks.

I find it unbelievable the,  agriegous willful blindness of those such as yourself.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 4:53:00 PM

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“I am a Jew. I was a participant in the Rally for the Right of Return to Palestine. It was the right thing to do.

Hopefully, somewhere deep inside, every Jew of conscience knows that this was no war; that this was not G-d's restitution of the holy land to it's rightful owners. We know that a human atrocity was and continues to be perpetuated against an innocent people who couldn't come up with the arms and money to defend themselves against the western powers bent upon their demise as a people.”

--Judith Stone

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:07:59 PM

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didn't Israel back Hamas to displace the PLO, another organization they once supported? Well they murdered Arafat and got their wish and now that wish has become the problem, perhaps a bigger problem than the latter.  Blunder or not, that is the question. And as you point out there are some who see it moreso as an opportunity. As long as Israel has the power to decide who should or shouldn't be allowed to govern Palistinian affairs, then those who say there is no solution for peace are correct. It is also obvious that Israel, at least for the most part does not want it any other way. Also I'd further add that all of us have been collectively punked right along with the Israeli citizenship and the Palestinians. As long as the business of politics, or should I say the politics of business dictates US foreign policy, there will never be a peace for Israel or anybody else, including ourselves.

Who is benefitting the most by this conflict? I'd say defense contractors and oil corporations. Which brings up another question. As long as US foreign oil dependence is intact, Israel's strategic importance remains paramount. But if that importance continues to dimish it makes one wonder how long the United States will keep sending hundreds of millions in aid to prop up Israel? Perhaps the real reason lies behind the US military. Israel is a destabalizing factor in the Middle East and we don't build more weapons than the rest of the world combined for nothing. As long as Israel is a strategic lynchpin there will be a need for continued extravagant defense spending. Once that need is gone, other issues must be invented like the missile defense shield that poses for another cold war in the making.  

The bottom line is the Palistinians(and the Jewish and American taxpayers) are being used as pawns in a crap shoot by influences who gain and maintain their political power by insuring the chaos. Collective punishment of the Palistinians guarantees outside influence by all the major players, from the Iyatollahs' right down to US defense contractors and Saudi oilmen. The Palestinians, like us are the victims and they are helpless victims without recourse.  They know as no doubt everyone else does that if they threw out Hamas as Israel wants, nothing would change. Israel would insist on yet another radical group they think will play ball with them. The illegal settlements would continue as planned. How much food, blankets, electricity and medicine they receive would be dictated by Israel and the rest of the western world won't raise a finger beyond a verbal protest to stop it.

I think the solution beyond removing our own dependence from foreign oil, lies in giving Israel some tough love which would include not sending them weapons until they decide to pull out of the occupied territories. At the same time the rest of the world must take action to ensure Palestine is not only protected from it's enemies, but be given autonomy along with the right to govern themselves and chose their own political leaders. If the UN could so easily march in and give Israel it's own country and autonomy, then why can't it do the same for the Palestinians? Well I think we know the answer.

by Michael Shaw (12 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 439 comments [16 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 6:57:36 AM

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 I strongly recommend this article for people interested in understanding the roots of the current escalation.

click here

by Jennifer Hathaway (16 articles, 16 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 760 comments [220 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:39:49 AM

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the article in question is at:

www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

by Jennifer Hathaway (16 articles, 16 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 760 comments [220 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:41:36 AM

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i read on one liberal web site either yours or buzz flash that what distinguishes a liberal from a conservative is a sense of fair play and decency.Mr Kall you have let your Israeli heritage cloud your judgement.From all i have read the israeli's as usual broke the truce.Before the rockets started again they conducted raids into Palastinian land to assasinate 6 hamas officials and destroyed tunnels used to bring in food,medicine,water and probably ammo to get around the Israeli attempts to starve them into submission.This was the cause of the cease fire being ended.Unatil the zionist isralis stop stealing more land and start honoring treaties there will never be peace in the middle east.And by the way i see what some people mean that the jews control the media,buzz flash carried a Washinton post article by a former Israeli cabinet member blaming the destructyion of the cease fire on Hamaas rocket fire ,convientiently not mentioning what Israel did to destroy the cease fire.

by liberalsrock (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 256 comments [53 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 3:37:27 PM

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with the help of UFO's that can read your mind. The UFOs are part of the NWO and I am, secretly, ruler of the world. Bush was under Jewish command, too, right? And cheney, his real name is chenowitz. Even Barack Obama-- his real name is Baruch Obama. Either that or you're a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, and definitely, as I said in the article, helping the right wing Israelis who push for the attacks on Palestinians. Does that make you smart?  Right.

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 7:38:37 PM

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Israel is committing genocide on the Palestinians. I assume Israel is not above nuking Palestine. If indeed they do that, well, the fire balls begin and the desert ends up a wasteland that Israel can rebuild and put back together with the help of all the USA's tax payers' money.

As far as the truth about this situation, MSM sure isn't speaking it. I don't entirely agree with your opinion Rob but surely don't feel biased against being of Jewish ancestry because this is about Israel's gov't and military doing wrong, Not Jews in Israel or here in America. I just finished reading an article from a UN inspector that was held captive in a tiny room by the Israeli gov't and not allowed to REPORT on Gazan conditions and not allowed to enter Gaza. The Israeli military and Gov't have plenty to hide and that proves it.

As far as I am concerned, Israel is remaking the German holocaust on their Gazan neighbors and the rest of the mid east gets more and more angry at them as they watch on.

Palestine doesn't even have a standing Army, Navy, Airforce or the weaponry to even come close to what America(Israel) has and America is hen pecked by Israel.

Hey, just blow up the entire planet already and be done with this Bullshit.

by shirley reese (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 592 comments [98 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 8:44:22 PM

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America and Israel helped build up Hamas. Similar to how we built Al quada up in the 80's. We armed them and taught them fighting and now we want to kill al quada and like wise we repeated this scenario with Hamas.

I'll see if I can paste the article site to this for ALL TO READ how America BUILT UP HAMAS.

by shirley reese (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 592 comments [98 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:18:43 PM

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Hamas came to power through a fair and open election process - but according to a number of Palestinians I have interviewed - their success had more to do with a deep dissatisfaction with Fatah than support for their policies.

The knee-jerk reaction of Israel and the US to isolate a democratically elected government simply because it didn't follow an "Israel-first" agenda made a mockery of the so called democracy that Washington claims to promote in the Middle East.

It also blew a golden opportunity to secure a solution to the  Palestinian "question."

The US and Israel have had multiple opportunities since the election of Hamas to cut a deal with Fatah.. in fact, academics and Middle East experts who are far wiser than me have said the best - in fact the only way to undermine the authority of Hamas is to make Fatah look good..

But Palestinian President Abbas is continually made to look a fool by his US and Israeli negotiating partners.. I will not comment on accusations that he has betrayed the Palestinian cause and is actually complicit - but so many times he has given ultimatums and then backed down.  

Everybody on this forum who has said that Hamas cannot be defeated militarilly are absolutely correct. Israel can re-occupy Gaza and kill or capture the Hamas leadership.. but since Hamas is a "movement" - others will come and replace them.. perhaps under a different name or slogan.. but kill them today.. they'll spring right back up again tomorrow.

So the military track is futile.. it always has been..

Negotiation and a political settlement is the only way forward.. so why has the United States and Israel squandered every opportunity for a negotiated settlement..??

A friend of mine in Egypt once told me that he'd been privy to conversations between Anwar Sadat and Golda Meir during which the Palestinian question was discussed.  He tells me Meir was adamant.. there will never be a Palestinian state. 

While there have been Israeli settlements in Golan and previously in Sinai and Gaza.. the level of infrastructure development has never matched that in the Palestinian occupied territories.

The reason is, he says, is that Israel always planned to return Golan and Sinai in return for peace.. the West Bank, however, is, and will always remain, under Israeli occupation - either de-facto or direct.

by Chris Gelken (22 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 8 comments) on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:30:47 PM

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Excellent article Rob. 

Personally, I think that both sides are insane.  It will be an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye etc until someone runs out of eyes.  It will never end until one side wipes the other off the planet.  I have been reading about this conflict my entire life and still have no idea who is right and who is wrong.

by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:07:09 AM

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I have studied the Holocaust intently for many years. My Lebanese friends made quite a case for explaining how Gaza was in the process of being obliterated, like a parking lot.

The Warsaw ghetto took about 3 years to destroy. They, like Gaza, used tunnels to get out. We'll see how the Israeli "occupation" goes. Take a look at the 14 dead Palestinian children's photos at Uruk.net

Critics win no friends by insulting my or anyone else's intelligence in promulgating what they genuinely believe.

In comparing what Israel is doing to Gaza to what Germany did to the Warsaw Ghetto, I will retract nothing and will apologize for nothing. The comparisons may be shocking but generally the truth is often shocking.

Maybe the "occupation" will go smoothly, and maybe not if Israel starts treating the Palestinians in Gaza like the US treated the Iraqis in Bagdhad. We should not be in the Middle East at all. It is corrupting and destroying the US economy entirely, much as Karl Marx and Hegel and Engels predicted, long ago. We are in the middle of it. Anyone disagree?

by Stephen Fox (96 articles, 3 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 802 comments [33 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:34:32 PM

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