Have you thought of running for office? I think we need more unashamed liberals. I keep wondering why Obama is patterning himself on Lincoln- he should be patterning himself on Lyndon Johnson, he could even use Johnsons poor example of the Vietnam War and get out of the wars we have been embroiled in.

Anyway if you run I will organize in Phoenix

siriusss 

by siriusss (6 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 111 comments [6 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:48:22 AM

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Is that most of the high level economic appointments being made by Obama are connected to Bob Rubin who drove Citigroup into the toilet after doing things in the Clinton administration that set everything up for the economic meltdown we are now experiencing.  If only establishment people will be running the Obama system, then why should we have any real hope that the guilty people will get punished - and not just fines, but indictment and imprisonment!!!!

by Joel S. Hirschhorn (141 articles, 50 quicklinks, 65 diaries, 546 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:56:02 AM

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One possible reason for the use of the Rubin gang is that Rubin is credited with the Chinese miracle. The problem with that is I dont think he had anything to do with it. I was in China at the time and had a company there. The Chinese did what was necessary to stem the emergency in Asia in the late 90s. Beijing told Rubin what they wanted he and the US to do if they wanted US business to stay in China. They had a lot of leaverage-they could dump US debt

siriusss

by siriusss (6 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 111 comments [6 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:32:17 AM

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This is war alright; class war. The super-wealthy versus everyone else. The money power versus the people.

I still say we ought to send Bush off in an appropriate manner - with a national strike. Bring the economy to a dead stop, since it's not working for us anyway. There are so so many ways we could put the money they're looting from the treasury to good use. Will we stop them by reading the news of their latest scam every week? Will we stop them by going to work and funneling more tax dollars into their greedy hands? Will we stop them by complaining to legislators? NOT!

And you know what? Their reckless uninhibited greed is going to crash the economy anyway! I say we do it first, with purpose. 

by Jim Eldon (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 253 comments [15 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:03:57 AM

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We have seen how dirty and low down these oligarchs can be. They marginalized Ron Paul, they marginalized Ross Perot 16 years ago, and they have reduced Ralph Nader to irrelevance. These people play dirty and use the national news media as their propaganda arm. So my point is that when you have seen how low down they are as Republican Party operatives, what makes all of us who correctly call for massive house cleaning...what makes us think they will go without a fight or that there is a large enough percentage of the American public that would back such things as we call for if the oligarchy started pulling out their propanda campaign ('bad for business' and 'patriot baiting') against Obama or anyone who tried making any REAL changes? I fear there would be a bullet for Obama and Operation Garden Plot would swing into action (concentration camps that have been built already in the event of "massive civil unrest"). These oligarchs plan to play hardball if they are ever REALLY threatened. Perhaps I'm defeatist and don't mean it to be that way, but I am realistic and dont think the reasonable among us have enough critical mass to pull of a massive reform of the nature Mr. Kall is calling for (and his call falls upon attentive and consenting ears with me)....but I fear that the oligarchy will not go down without a massive fight and there being a lot of people hurt, a la Robert Mugabe or Augusto Pinchet. These beistards will have to be taken down by a massive coordinated public outcry. Perhaps the economic distress will get so bad that conditions will be ripe for that kind of outcry. That will be about the only thing that can force the American public into the critical mass necessary for such house cleaning. Otherwise, you'll have the same old divide and conquer strategy used by the Republicans successfully for years to ram through their skullduggery. And there's a big enough percentile of our public that are stupid enough to side with the status quo. So I'm just pointing all this out by way of a possible monkey wrench into the machinery of reform, if it ever comes about. And so  far I am only seeing from Obama a Clintonesque status quo.

by JOHN LORENZ (23 articles, 117 quicklinks, 118 diaries, 313 comments [25 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:35:34 PM

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But there is a way, just ask the Viet Namese and the Iraqi's.....  They are beating the highest tech and the best trained military, by using leaderless resistance.

Guerrilla warfare if you will.   Be "all knowing" (where do they live, where do they shop, how do they get to work, etc) and "unknown", keep a low profile, never tell anyone, only work with those you know very well....  and be "target specific and one at a time.   That will do it.   Never use a cell phone.  

If we don't do that, then wave goodbye as they haul you away in those train cattle cars to the camps... you have nothing to lose and everything to gain... thats how I see it.  

by pepper (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 42 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:55:02 PM

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The Thai people, the Icelanders,  it's going around the world!  It is not just the pitifully put-upon American populace.  Strength in Numbers, Guerrilla style stands the test to come.

by boomerang (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 556 comments [215 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:09:34 PM

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Rob you're right but I think it's to late.

When bush stole office the US debt was $5 trillion.

As of September 1st that debt was $9 trillion.

Since  September 1st we are borrowing at a rate of $9 trillion PER YEAR just beyond any ability to begin to pay down.

Yesterday you and I and every American guaranteed  to back up CITI to the tune of $25,000.00 each. Do you think for that much of our money we'll be invited to their holiday party? 

by tjb (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 255 comments [9 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:06:25 AM

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..... the currency.   Once they build it up with the new FDIC guaranteed insurance on borrowing and repayment, they will push this debt, along with all the wars coming, including Pakistan and Russia, into a situation where we will have to declare "Forced Mejeure"...... default on our debt, that will make the currency virtually worthless and then we will demonetize the dollar, which means everything you own in dollars will be worthless, except for the banks of course because they got bailed out and part of that was to purchase the new currency at current currency rates.... Notice the value of our currency went up recently for no sane reason whatsoever????

That is called market manipulation.   The new currency has already been shipped to overseas banks like China's development bank to replace the dollar when it crashes and they sent it at the current currency values.

So bankers will be fine, its us that will be screwed.....  so the key is to get as much gold and silver as you can even in the black market which is where the trading is now going on.   

Then you can buy it later at the higher valued precious metals value which  will climb with the decrease or death of our currency.   I am sure what is going to happen, just not sure when it will all come down.   

by pepper (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 42 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 6:05:14 PM

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Rob suggested voiding the personhood that corporations covertly arrogated to themselves, and which was predicated on an introductory comment in a supreme court case about railroads in the 19th century. There's another way to fix their wagons, though, and that is to grab the handle, and push it too far in the direction they wanted it to go: give corporations COMPLETE personhood, including the risk of incarceration or execution for crimes they commit.

I explored that scenario in a series of short stories on my blog. In these stories, the Freemont-Wayfarer Corporation is found guilty by the court and sentenced to a three-year incarceration. During this period, the court assigns a kind of parole officer to take over the company's board of directors. She unionizes the company's employees and gives the union a seat on the board. Executive level people are locked into their jobs for the three years, and severe restrictions are placed on what the company is permitted to do.

Spend some time exploring how that might go down, and keep the discussion about how to deal with corporate power going. Fremont-Wayfarer's saga starts here:

klurgsheld.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/short-story-full-circle/ 

by P. Orin Zack (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 17 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:16:47 AM

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Freel free to cross post your stories as articles on OEN.

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:28:32 PM

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the 1970's and the Left's period of thinking the American public was primed and ready for all it's analyses of what was wrong with, and required to fix, non-socialist America.  Now, when I read complicated, many-faceted, wordy, and/or simply utopian analyses of what's wrong with America in November of 2008, and how it can be fixed, I start shaking in my memory-boots.

We really shouldn't forget that Bushco made a conscious decision to keep hands off the internet and take credit for allowing "Free Speech", while busting street-protesters all over the country, openly while being ignored by the media.  And it really remains to be seen how much the public is "ready" for such arcane, but catchy to the complicated wordsmiths among us, remedies as making corporations "full" persons.  

This is not to criticize writings about anything on the internet.  In fact, I was very surprised to see numerous words that I thought Lenny Bruce and George Carlin died assuring would not be banned on the air, banned here at OEN.   But I am criticizing thinking that complicated and multi-faceted writing is preferable to leaner and meaner prose; which prose is in fact  much more appropriate to these times.

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:56:54 PM

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There's no other word that means the same thing. I want to see it eliminated. Corporations should be given the same rights as or treated the same as humans.

Regarding words-- there are no bans here, but people better have a pretty good reason to us the N or C words that hurt people. 

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:06:33 PM

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ran a corporation for public office; i saw their site, but have not been able to find it again. It wasn't the Yes Men

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1110 comments [56 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:20:33 PM

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to organize work in an advanced industrial society, I would agree that making corporations equivalent to persons was desireable - whether pursuing that goal under the present circumstances in America makes the slightest sense is another question.

And regarding words which OEN does and does not permit, I had in mind the F*** and the S*** words, primarily.  But I don't think anyone to the left of Hitler -- much less Lenny Bruce or George Carlin -- has ever proposed the N***** word be used freely.  

On the other hand, why the heck does OEN ban use of the (Hitler-related) N*** word? 

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:48:03 PM

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Do you think all of this economic crisis could have mastered by say the rich elite powerful in order to bring the U.S. down giving reasons for eventual whole hearted support for a North American Union. I would like to hear peoples opinion on this? As Rob calls them, are these "Pirates" organized by even bigger "Pirate organizations".

by Sharon Roach (15 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 184 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:27:46 AM

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But I don't have a clear idea of what a North American Union would look like.  Also, it took Europe over forty years to really get the EU going, although they had many spoken languages among prospective member nations while the U.S. has, what, English and Spanish?  Also, if your include Mexico, presumably all the central American countries would be included as well.  And is the Great Drug War approach to relating to our southern Spanish-speaking neighbors relevant, or even possible, any more?  The U.S. seems little better than bumbling currently over the Venezuela-Colombia situation.

All in all, a Big Question.  But requiring a daunting -- and possibly too daunting -- amount of time and research.  At least for anyone who is not interesed in writing a book. 

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:10:04 PM

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Have you thought of running for office? I think we need more unashamed liberals. I keep wondering why Obama is patterning himself on Lincoln- he should be patterning himself on Lyndon Johnson, he could even use Johnsons poor example of the Vietnam War and get out of the wars we have been embroiled in.

Anyway if you run I will organize in Phoenix

siriusss 

by siriusss (6 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 111 comments [6 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:29:20 AM

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The latest Yahoo! news headline:

AP - President-elect Barack Obama named Peter Orszag as his budget director on Tuesday and said his job will be to conduct a thorough review of federal spending programs, "eliminating those programs we don't need and insisting that those we do need operate in a cost-effective way."

And what are those programs we don't need? The Fed! Private bank bailouts! War! But no, these guys, Obama and the Congress included, just keep talking past the problem. It doesn't exist.

"The process of deception has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary." George Orwell, 1984  

by Jim Eldon (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 253 comments [15 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:28:42 PM

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He is not going to take away the pirates' ill-gotten gains. He is not going to discredit them, prosecute them, or even criticize them. Instead, he will ensure that the pirates pay no price for having stolen the country blind. He will help the pirates shift the burden of the disaster onto the backs of the general public. This is what the various "bailouts" represent -- a policy fully supported by both parties. Meanwhile, Obama will continue appointing more Robert Rubin clones to his economic team -- the very types who helped pave the way to the present meltdown.

Obama's "unity" schtick is a kind of code language. It means "unity" between the financial pirates who stole the country into bankruptcy;  and the rest of us, who will be stuck with the bill. You know, we're "all American; we're all in this together" -- except for the slight difference in the roles that we all play. The role of the banking pirates is to have the government-assisted pleasure of looting; while the role of the rest of us is simply to be looted.

Obama has already nominated a group of Rubin clones. Similarly, regarding the war crimes of the last 8 years, Obama has already made clear that none of the torturers, "WMD" liars, or war criminals will be held to account. In fact, some of them, like his top advisor on intelligence matters, John Brennan, will occupy high posts in the new administration. Other well-known war hawks, like Hillary, Emanuel & Daschle, have already been moved into top positions.

There will be no one in the new administration who's a threat to the corporate pirates. There will be no one who's a threat to the continuing project of US militarism, either. These 2 diseased aspects of today's US society will continue undisturbed, despite the new faces & personalities.

by Richard Mynick (2 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 1552 comments [255 recommended, 5 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:29:41 PM

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Its interesting that you guys are insistent about making this about ideology.

FDR was absolutely not a progressive before taking office. He simply did what he thought was necessary to fix the crisis. He didnt care what ideology he was or was not following.

Obama is going to do what is necessary to put people back to work and get the economy moving again. It just so happens that much of what he is going to do is going to look much more like FDR programs than Reagan programs.

But if you are making this about ideology or class, you are wrong-headed in your approaches. Its about what works.

by Steven Leser (255 articles, 58 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 2147 comments [63 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:24:45 AM

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The NATURAL ECONOMIC ORDER

 Banning interest (usury; original definition before the power elite decided "excessive" interest was a better definition- and that over 30% on credit card debt is not "excessive") would be a boon for everyone wanting to borrow money- the rate paid on savings has been consistently destroyed by the inflation we've experienced since the 1913 Fed Act- banning interest would also destroy the banking elite's stranglehold on the economy and political process. 

Taxing money would stimulate everyone with money to stop hoarding, and either spend it, loan it or invest it.

This was tried in Worgl, Austria in 1933; the town had 1/3 unemployment at the time and in short order experienced full employment, fully funded public works projects, economic growth and decreasing prices; money was worth MORE when loans were repaid, than was being paid as interest.

When the central bank found out this was going on and 200 towns and cities were interested in trying it, they shut it down.

Of course, if Obama tries this without massive support, he's liable to wind up like Hamilton, Lincoln, MLK, the dead Kennedys and Wellstone.

Of course, as many here were pointing out before and after the election, Obama's picks (like Geithner to head the Treasury) indicate "change" is not what he has in mind. This could change if the ability to shop and waste isn't quickly restored to the American taxpayer and consumer.

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1110 comments [56 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50:46 PM

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Thank you Rob.

An excellent article that has spoken for many of us.

This clearly shows your frustration, and disgust with what is happening.

To make matters worse our saviour Obama seems intent on rewarding those who have done us in.

Obama must take the high road and that means he must prosecute the Bush Administration War Criminals, Economic Criminals, and hold to account all those who have been responsible.

by Rolland Miller (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 227 comments [78 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:24:33 PM

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by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:21:01 PM

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exorbitant, compared to the 7.4 Trillion Kurt Nommo estimates Bushco has spent and will be spending to bail out the U.S. Economy.  See his headlined article right across the way.

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:27:18 PM

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Right on, Rob.

We need a public central bank.  Congress must take back the purse power by taking the Fed stock and inserting the public interest back into money and credit creation.  The private "independent" Fed scheme has ruined us and created an all-powerful oligarchy destroying both democracy and real economy.

Kent Welton,

PublicCentralBank.com

by Kent Welton (71 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 63 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:30:17 PM

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Mr. Welton, i see from your site you mention 0% interest home loans and propose an Amendment that would nationalize the Federal Reserve system; what is your opinion of Silvio Gesell's economic system, 2 main tenets of which are banning interest paid/charged on money, and taxing money to stimulate its circulation?

The NATURAL ECONOMIC ORDER 

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1110 comments [56 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:36:19 PM

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Rob and Everyone Else Who is Up in Arms,

C'mon....seriously!  Are you really surprised that Obama has turned out to be an Establishment acolyte?

My goodness.  He has so many skeletons in his closet that he can't FIT ANYMORE.  How are you surprised that he's spending $3 trillion more of our money?  How in the world do we allow ourselves to be herded into the same stupid corral every four years??????

The sooner you all admit it, the better off we'll all be.  You got caught up in the worshipful reverie.  Obama (as well as McCain) was THE WRONG CANDIDATE.  We need to get those 1-2 million Phillies fans out in the streets supporting candidates like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul or we will continue to be taken to the cleaners.

by Frank Staheli (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 37 comments [16 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:34:39 PM

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for McCain (whatever he is).  I voted for Obama and it was the first time I'd voted in a presidential election since 1984.  And since 11.04.008, I find myself getting REALLY excited aobut the course of politics btw now and 01.20.09 -- keeping Bushco's feet to the fire with continuing impeachment efforts, etc.  While a fellow radical I know, who didn't vote at all, thinks it's a waste of time to pursue anything in the United States - go abroad if you can and join the Naomi Klein revolution.

It really IS amazing how much voting or not voting for a major party in America affects your subsequent politics.  And now I have a FEEL for it, having finally voted for one again.  That legacy of top-of-the-line-brainwashing about Democracy and Voting, I suppose.

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:40:52 PM

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The last major party candidate I voted for president was Ronald Reagan, although I have voted in every election since I was 18.  I still consider that a good vote.  The Republicans were hijacked by the Clinton machine, and they're coming around again in the Obama admin.

I supported Chuck Baldwin in the recent election.  Trust me: Obama will disappoint you.

by Frank Staheli (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 37 comments [16 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:24:30 PM

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I meant to say Republicans were hijacked by Bush, and then along came the Clinton machine...

by Frank Staheli (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 37 comments [16 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:25:52 PM

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I voted AGAINST Reagan in 1984, for some reason he scared the s*** out of me that year.  And now, I can't even remember who I voter FOR.  The Dim presidential candidate in 1984?  You got him?

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:31:56 PM

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Obama or hillary, then,

Obama or McCain, Obama was the best of the lot. That is not in any way saying he's anywhere near perfect, just that among the choices, he was the best we could get. Now, we have to do what we can to get him to do the right things. 

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:10:43 PM

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If we continue to think that the slop that the major parties offer us are the only candidates that we can vote for, then I guess we deserve what we get.  If we look outside the artificial limits that the Establishment places on us, ultimately we might be able to get to the point where the major parties offer more than crap for candidates.

Don't tell me you're surprised that Obama has fooled you with his cabinet picks, with his stance on Israel, and with his multi-trillion-dollar acquiesence on the bailout issue.

Rob, you're MUCH more well-read than I am, and I saw it coming.

by Frank Staheli (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 37 comments [16 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 6:33:43 PM

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You are entering the world of cranky old men. You are becoming one of us.

 Seriously tho, Rob-good article. My only real question for the ongoing bailouts is: Where the hell is the money going to come from? The middle class is on its' knees and dying fast. We  cannot support more bailouts unless they are for us. And otherwise, who the hell is going to lend it to us?

We do not need any more gimmicks or financial wizardry from these people who have taken so much from us. Investigations, criminal trials for the people, re-regulation for the corporations. Tax equity would go a long way but rumors have it that Obama has taken the Bush tax breaks off the table, 'temporarily' as it were. 

What we have here are more cronies, more 'questionable' behavior, at the least, from the 'newbies' Obama is selecting. Yes, I worked in Command excellence programs, programs that worked well until the powers felt it all getting too close to their power base. But concensus was the order of the day. Agreement on every term, item, issue, before we went out the door. It won't happen here. Too many people with proven agendas and an oh so strong willingness to help the downtrodden rich.

There are many worthy causes and other uses for that money now going into the banker's pockets. Health care for all children. Improved schools that are not tasked and scammed with No Child Left Behind. Road, bridges, airports. High speed light rail. Mortgage relief for those in need.

Legal changes-such as repairing the very consumer unfriendly credit card laws. Usury laws applied to credit card companies and banks would be nice. No to GE/GMO foods. So many things.

Well. I will be looking for further changes from an up and coming a cranky old man. 

Nice work. 

by Jack Harrington (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 675 comments [70 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:38:54 PM

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by Rafe Pilgrim (63 articles, 0 quicklinks, 19 diaries, 84 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:42:18 PM

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Pilgrim," drawled Big John, as he mounted up and rode off, cancerous, into the sunset. 

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:47:09 PM

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by PeterJ (16 articles, 3 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 236 comments [53 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:21:43 PM

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will be called upon to bail everyone out. NOT! There just isn't that much money in the entire world. Here are the closest world estimates I could find:

1) The volitile severely over-leveraged derivatives market is ~$684 trillion;

2) Total value of stocks in publically traded companies ~$140 trillion;

3) Total value of stocks in private companies ~$140 trillion;

4) Total value of ALL physical inrastructure in the world with any value ~$280 trillion;

5) World GDP ~$50 trillion;

6) Set up a balance sheet, do the math, and vomit.

by Paul Magill Smith (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 135 comments [46 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:02:37 PM

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...in fact millions of us have constantly battled the minions of the ignorant. Apparently our efforts at turning around (educating) one person at a time to the threat posed by a corrupt bird (political liars) with two wings, sh*tting on us all, is just not effective when the mass media are corrupted also.

by Paul Magill Smith (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 135 comments [46 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:24:27 PM

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Bingo!

Yes nails have been hit on the head. 

Same old same old will continue as long as go along to get alog continues.

If the FED and corporate "personhood" is not destroyed, we will be and are.

Halfway measures are not viable. It is all or nothing now because we are in the End Game now...Terminal Phase. If you go back to sleep this time you won't wake up.

Yea Rob, people have called me crazy my whole life, because I saw what we were headed for decades ago. I got used to it. Remember what Krishnamurti said about being "well adjusted" in a pathological society...Lol

Welcome to the Grump Club dude!

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:16:09 PM

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I would go further , Rob. It is a coup d'etat. I think we all need to think about whether it worth it to stay here and try to make a difference. or just leave.

by Ellen Olenska (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 6:31:07 PM

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...know where to begin. 

I’m angry as hell, too, at feeling like it looks like we’re being sold out before Obama even gets in. I keep getting suspicions we are being played for fools by all sides, left, right and a big shaft up the middle. All this talk of ‘change’ looks like just a set-up for the big con.

How about someone like Krugman, or Stiglitz, for Treasury Secretary?

by Paul Magill Smith (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 135 comments [46 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:53:11 PM

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carry our cash away just happens to be named KASHKARI, another Goldman Sachs stooge on a temporary paid leave, who will likely be rewarded with a 'sack' of 'cash' to 'carry' away when he returns to work for his prime employer upon leaving (or getting booted from) public office.

To the point, Rob, many of us recognize the problem (and problem people involved). Now pray tell us HOW DO WE CORRECT THIS SITUATION?

The la la land of idealistic utopia is filled to capacity with people bitching & screaming...where is our leverage to actually get done what needs to be done? I refuse to enter the looming depression in a state of powerless depression; my almost four centuries of direct local American ancestors expect more of me. I might have been borne into a culture that slaves for a dollar, but I refuse to be a slave to a dollar.

by Paul Magill Smith (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 135 comments [46 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:41:29 PM

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I always monitor mainstream news articles comment sections and from what I'm reading a lot of Americans are outraged at this new bold step by paulson and company. People just don't know where to channel that outrage at this point.

by Sharon Roach (15 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 184 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:20:37 PM

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... Obama should ..."

All good sensible suggestions, my question is whom is going to implement and enforce them?

"We?", Okay, how?

"They," is "we" in hiding. So "they" is counting on "we".  Again how?

"Congress?", How do "we" get "them" to do a GD thing when they've obviously been bought-off by said pirates? You can buy a lot of loyalty with the kind of money that's been stolen the last few weeks, what was the latest figure ... $7.4 Trillion? Unless "we" have that kind of money and can threaten congress with death along with bribing them, what chance do we have?  

All these great suggestions are, well - great ... now what? You think any of these suggestions will even see the light of day? If that were true, wouldn't congress have enacted them a long time ago? And actually they did, we had/have laws and regulations, they're just not being enforced, or those measures were either repealed or laws are simply ignored as "we" lived the high-life ignoring the coming train-wreck. So now we want to have "someone" fix it so we can go back to jumby-land.

"Obama should ..." should what? Stop hiring pirates? That would be a good start, but highly unlikely, being he's one of them. This man isn't our savior, he's our bane. If he were on our side, wouldn't he have already shown it? He's already signaled where he's at by refusing to have any accountability for war crimes, if he's not going after people that have sh*t all over the Geneva Convention and Constitution, what makes anyone think he'll go after these pirates?

I hear your anger Rob, but what are you going to do about it? What can be done, when "they", "we", are doing nothing but spouting-off to a government that is not just unresponsive, but are the very pirates you're railing at to fix this problem? It's like a whole bunch of us going to Al Capone complaining of crime in our neighborhood and he should fix it.

"You cannot solve problems with the same body of conscience." Albert Einstein.

Who the hell is going to implement all these suggestions? Congress? Hell, we saw how much they listened to us when they pissed in our ears with the first "fail-out", when calls were 1,000 to 1 against it.

So, now you're mad. Good. That's a start, but now what? Tell us how we get a congress and president that's in bed with these pirates to do a damn thing we say?

I'm all ears.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:19:55 PM

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by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:55:41 PM

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Rob, your carts are before all your horses.

All the big (or any size) business CEOs could wail till they were hoarse about the red ink their companies were bleeding while begging (?demanding?) bailouts from others, but if it were not for government nothing would happen. These legislators have created legislation authorizing the taking of money from citizens/residents/visitors by various means to give to various businesses and other favorites. And it is the government enforcers - like those enforcers of the mafia - who put the legislation into action; without these individuals who are willing to initiate force on others, the legislators could issue orders till their throats and their fingers were sore and nothing would happen.

And for many of the business failures or severe slumps - like the subprime mortgage fiasco - the legislators in Congress (often ones who are now out of office or dead) were responsible for legislation that created regulations that required many businesses to act against sound economic practices.

For you and all others who haven't read it (and whose economic understanding is likely weak as a result of being taught by confused economy professors), I highly recommend Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.

So Obama and his fellows are going to simply continue the practice of politicians before them - blame others and thereby create class envy in as many as possible against those who have more. And of course Obama and company will continue to insist that government can solve the problems with enough of the "right" tweaking from the Congress created Federal Reserve. This administration also has a little twist not seen since Kennedy. Now the call for sacrifices from everybody is being made, the operative phrase of his election victory speech. Have I missed the statement that Obama is going to take a 20% cut in the salary paid to US President, V-Pres, and all upper Executive branch officials and request that both houses of Congress approve the same measures for the Legislative and Judiciary branches?? (Salary information)
 
So I say that the pirates are those elected and appointed in government - not those who could only slink off into oblivion due to their business failure unless supported by those with the guns of enforcers. And this last exactly describes the situation of government, which has brought the US to the state it is in now - a real mess! But maybe this is the only way a lot of people will see the havoc that government has created.

by Kitty Antonik Wakfer (26 articles, 27 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 163 comments [15 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:14:09 PM

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internet exchanges ever reach resolution?  Approximately zip.  But how much better is our having them than the "semi-public" communication situation in 1988?  And I see a parallel to this latter condition of Great Improvement, in the prospects for ANY Dimocrat, and Obama specifically, to beat any Republican 18 months ago, and the result of the election.   

These are the times that...we must seize.  A great flux is happening in America, and we who communicate politics and get our information from the internet must never forget that we are still a miniscule minority.  And using the internet as we do is a highly fragile, invaluable priviledge. 

In my opinion, internet leftists should move to the center, and internet centrists should move to the left, and if our luck holds, it doesn't matter a tinker's damn which way the righties should move.

by GLloyd Rowsey (104 articles, 65 quicklinks, 60 diaries, 828 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:20:12 PM

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Central Planning—for everything in our lives—that is the “socialism” that is embracing us as a people at this moment. This is not the exact opposite of capitalism, this is the exact opposite of liberty. It is simply tyranny with a new name, a euphemism, a neurolinguistic fraud. It is social engineering, an artificial construct that leads to acceptance of the Maximum Security State.

There are two feet in the jackboots walking on the faces of the people of this nation, a right foot and a left foot. This tyranny has arrived step by step along a single agenda presented as a game of two teams playing at opposing points--meant only as a vehicle to steer the state from behind the facade, unnoticed, unmolested by publicity; the Power Elite.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:53:33 PM

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I really lke the use of the word "pirates" to describe the CEO's who have raided their corporations and left us holding the bag.

Somehow we have got this stimulus idea all bass ackward.  If  you want to help most working people and those who are losing jobs and experiencing other types of economic stress,  then enact universal, single-payer health care.  It would take a huge financial burden off families who are having to adjust to jobs without benefits and it would prop up struggling companies.

by Bryan Emmel (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 415 comments [32 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:19:05 AM

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        Inform yourselves as have the commenters here.    I never knew of the Worgl model proposed by BWO, had not seen the actual numbers on the balance sheet by Paul Magill Smith, or known Rob would join the angry old men so soon, before coronation.    So start solutions right here.

       Read "Wealth and Democracy" by Kevin Phillips, in particular the section on the Revolutionary War time, as it explains profiteering, piracy, value of slavery, New York's role in the colonies as armory, the "assumption and funding" that fleeced the yeomanry and enriched the banksters, and the fate of wealthy profiteers such as Duer who died in debt prison.   As Phillips points out in the introduction,

 "The nation's biggest individual fortunes grew from $5 or $6 million in the 1830's to John D. Rockefeller's first billionaire status in 1907, and then lagged behind inflation through about 1980 before jumping to $50 or $100 billion in 2000.  This has utterly dwarfed the growth in median household or worker wealth and income.   In just over two centuries the United States went from being a society born of revolutionaries and touched by egalitarianism to being the country with the industrial world's biggest fortunes and its largest rich-poor gap."

      It went to an out of control military larger than the rest of the world combined that Obama, because his advisors want "competent people" not "visionaries", plans to rahmrod into hyperinsane total spectrum dominance.   

      It went to the world's biggest and richest jailer.

      It dropped the buildings owned by the Rockefellers neatly into their own footprints at freefall speed, with a lot of help by demolition experts.

      It invented the Arpanet and followed that up with blackbox voting.  

      It assassinated every true visionary from JFK through Mary Pinchot and maybe even Hawaii's Patsy Mink who died just after US military anthrax made its way to Congress and we were threatened with "for us or against us."     Patsy voted against the Patriot Act  and was always attacked as Pink Mink for advocating for women and other people.   She died suddenly of a mysterious infectious disease.... just a coincidence like Wellstone or Barry Jennings I'm sure, and yet...

   The media now is saying we are all crazy to think the game is rigged and very dirty, countering that we are on the cusp of something great and patriotic.

    My own take is we got it right or as Galileo said,

   "My critics will not look through my telescope".

     But the question is what to do.    Read Oped and keep those insights coming, those of you who understand economics.   I am just a dirtbag farmer who knows I can feed myself and fifty people no matter what.  I have my own water system filled from the sky and hope to get in PV before things get weird, but already have solar hot water all the time.   I can live off wild game if I suck it up and renounce vegetarianism.   I can invest my last worthless dollars in things I hope will not go to zero like stock in the New York Federal Reserve.    I am not sure if the switch to the Amero will mean ruin for dollar holders or what exactly, but plan to research more, thanks to the comments I read here.    The rise of the dollar recently in this crisis is counter intuitive.   It means the rest of the world is shaky too from having bought into US hegemony.  Apparently they cannot afford to be independent, or feel militarily threatened by attack from US nuclear weapons and DU.   Our own people have been warned repeatedly by our "leaders" that it might just take another falseflag terror attack to bring us to their bidding.   Biden has proclaimed public reaction as basically flawed, and wants unqualified loyalty, a weird concept introduced under Truman after he devastated Japan with WMD.   Smart people here will inform me of my ignorance and I welcome it, but I want no part of this new and ugly fascism now seemingly unstoppable as a runaway train.

     I'm not gonna say what think is the way because I foresee a major squeeze for everyone through a very narrow gate as it rapidly closes guarded by fascist thugs.   But I would emphasize that hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution can't be wrong that sustainability is based on simple systems operable even by stoners, small free groups without hierarchies sharing a group mind, limited footprint, limited collapse, intact ecosystems, and a reverent, even sacred view of the natural world.   

    "Make the most of the hempseed." - George Washington.   Cannabis tincture from Eli Lilly used to help the blues go way at least up until the dawn of militant fascism.  Hempseed could feed you and yours with the only complete protein  in the plant world and healthy lipids.    Hemp fiber was still valuable in the US as recently as WWII and still grows wild across the Midwest where it has easily naturalized as well as in its landrace origins.   Recent political victories by 2/3 majorities indicate that Hemp for Peace is much closer to reality than it has been since the days of Prescott Bush, Fritz Thyssen, and Auschwitz.

     I simply do not believe the Constition meant for any of the depradations and crimes against humanity committed by the crew coming and going in Warshington.     If the people of this nation cannot even take back what is guaranteed them and reclaim freedom from oppression can it still exercise sacramental  consciousness, or vice versa?   I propose we begin the process nonviolently through Gandhian strategies, as he has probably been the single most effective revolutionary or visionary in the modern political theater.   Get very creative.   Save yourself thereby.    I actually welcome the slander against us as I saw what happened on St. Matthews Island and know the meek actually do inherit the earth.

      So what I am proposing is we get our headspace into not caring all that much about our destroyed retirement funds and get with some farm communites growing stuff and generally taking in the bliss as the thing goes to hell rapidly under Obomba and his expanded Death Cult and Vampires Ball.     You need spiritually and physically the independence from this wreckage so that as it flushes itself into history you can be in a safe and secure place with a full belly and not much money.    The real money is just what the sun provides in photosynthates and the stuff we eat to keep on buzzin.

   And I know that was incredibly longwinded and visionary bullship, however.

    "Excuse this long letter.  I did not have time for a short one."

-Abraham Lincoln

Good luck then with the gardens for peace as I do not see how this can ever be solved within the vehicle or Cashcar of the United States, at least on its willful trajectory off a cliff driven by demon speculation.

by io (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 100 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:23:47 AM

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   "That this melt-down is building straight into the Christmas holidays is one of those accidents of history that leaves one reeling in wonder and nausea. The cable networks better be prepared to bombard the public with round-the-clock showings of It's A Wonderful Life, because they're going to need all the moral support they can get as zombies stalk through the silent night, holy night."

-James Kunstler, Clusterfuck Nation

    The movie Zeitgeist explains the mythical significance of winter solstice in almost all major cultures.   Here in Hawaii this season is known as Makahiki and is considered a time of peace and fertility as the Pleiades appear on the horizon.

      Recently I learned that even as winter solstice occurs on the day with least sunlight hours and intensity, it neary coincides with perihelion on Jan. 2 when Earth comes closest to the Sun.  Go figgah.

by io (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 100 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:15:31 AM

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...but they make it up in volume:

    " The terms of the deal with the government for an emergency cash infusion among other things require Citigroup to essentially borrow money from the federal government at 8%, and lend at the prevailing 4% market rate, says Ellison. "

-Business Week, 11/24

    Obviously this is vampire economics for a catabolic collapse.

by io (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 100 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:40:26 AM

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Well said, but too complicated to be effective.

The 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights is law in all UN member states. A violation of any one of these laws is a crime against humanity. A wrongful death during the commision of such a crime is murder in the first degree.

If a child starves to death because he lacked rice, Monsanto employees should be charged with crimes against humanity and murder. If Citicorp forecloses and the former home owner dies of exposure in the street, the Citicorp employees are responsible.

Perhaps, the imprisonment and execution of perpetrators will be an object lesson for many Americans. 

by Jason Paz (68 articles, 88 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1386 comments [97 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:43:12 AM

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      Effective indeed would be enforcing the laws already in place.   Go for it!   Support the ACLU or whatever you feel will work.

     I don't live in the US, but the Sovereign Nation of Hawaii, under all international law.    I don't  pledge allegiance to the US because it is not in jurisdiction here and basically has no title to North America either.   If I am to be judged ineffective then what about the Americans who vote for and continue financially support their own demise?     Tell us all about what you are doing, peace man.   I would really like some standard of reference, because I believe that I did present the most effective solution in Gandhi, independence, freedom from fiat money, and resiliency.   Anyhow, this has all been most interesting, for sure, and happily, now I can go camping.  

   Cheaper oil will be the sucker hole of blue sky enticing the people to try for the summit again.    They have invested too much in the guides and satphones, have assembled a third world crew of bearers, and helicopters should rescue them if they fail.    But how long do you think their hollow victory over the planet will last, seriously?     I  only wish you could revisit your skepticism of people getting back to ground, about say eighteen months from now.   I'll be happy to eat my words if I am wrong.  

       Awaiting your effectiveness.

by io (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 100 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:00:48 AM

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The $800 billion bailout on top of the $700 billion bailout will not be with borrowed money. The Fed is simply going to print it. Well, this is good news in a sense that we don't have to borrow it from the Chinese and pay it back with interest. Therefore, we don't have to raise taxes to service the non-existent debt. The only problem with printing money is inflation, but that is a minor concern at a time of deflation and economic stagnation.

I wasn't sure the Fed could even legally do this, but now I know it can. The Fed is a complicated mystery, which we could probably do well without. But since we're stuck with it for the foreseeable future, this is good news, and we should stop and take in a little good news with all the bad.  

And it makes one wonder why we didn't decide to service our huge and ever-growing debt by doing this in the past. Perhaps hyper-inflation is the reason, but I'm not an economist so I don't know for sure. Seems like a good idea to me, though. I just hope we don't destroy the value of the dollar by printing too many of them. That and the fact that Americans won't have real economic security without a stronger manufacturing base and an end to the huge trade deficits. Protectionism, anyone? And a return of the Glass-Steagall Act?

But I'm just glad we won't be adding any more to our bordering on non-repayable debt. And I find those figures of a $7 trillion bailout to be highly dubious. Also, Rob's lower figure of $3 trillion. I think we're running out of banks to save. At least, we should be by now. And if more do fail, we can always print more money. And that may be the only way to stave off an economic depression. If so, so be it.

So there's really no sense in talking about who "pirated" whom anymore and what can be done to avenge them. Now we're dealing with "funny money" that isn't going to be taken from the taxpayers' pockets (except perhaps through lower purchasing power due to inflation.) So there is a little good news intermixed with all the bad, and I choose to focus on it instead.

by Sam Adams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 90 comments) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:14:26 AM

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Thanks Sam,

I have heard from a couple of sources that the bail-out money is straight-out money, not the interest-bearing credit/debt funny money that the world has been tricked into 'borrowing into existence' from the private 'commercial' banking system for the past 300 years or so (and which now makes up 95-98% of the money supply in each country).  There are and have been a few notable exceptions to this around the world from time to time, including Worgl in Austria, and other places in Germany (Bavaria) and Switzerland, the (English) Channel Islands of Guernsey and Jersey, and the Isle of Man in the Irish Sea, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and most notably, the USA; from the Colonial scrip to the Continental currency to Lincoln's greenbacks (some of which are still in circulation, I am told) there would not be a USA if it weren't for money being issued instead of debt at pivotal times in American history.  [visit www.monetary.org and read the great articles there, and read a copy of "The Lost Science of Money" - the most comprehensive history of money and power written so far]  But this 1,500 billion being issued presently is certainly very note-worthy, and should be publicized as much as possible.  The country could repair or rebuild a lot of bridges, roads, railroads, dams, schools, hospitals, etc. with that kind of dough, and it can also be directly distributed into each person's pocket so they can decide how to spend some of it themselves individually, like the Alaska Permanent Fund dividend that all residents in Alaska receive.  That would go a long way toward achieving genuine financial independence and economic democracy for everyone, from the each individual up through local and state bodies up to the national level.  [google "The Cook Plan" prepared by Richard C. Cook, a former US Treasury analyst and current economic commentator]  The precedent has been shown now, so hopefully people will demand that these issues of money, as opposed to tax-burdening interest-bearing debt, goes to proper uses and into the hands of the people who produce all the real wealth that the money is just a claim on, instead of into the hands of the banksters who only pretend to lend money (which they don't have, and never did) and who don't produce any real wealth, only exponentially increasing debt (which is to real wealth what anti-matter is to matter), and who are just flushing it into the black holes of their balance sheets, never to see the light of day in the real world again, as it is just being stolen to be cancelled out of existence again in a vain and futile attempt to balance their over-cooked books - what a waste!

This is the only way to restore confidence in 'the market', i.e. the people, by restoring the real economy from the grassroots up instead of the glass towers down.  The vampiric debt-money system has drained the population dry and is fast reaching its own mathematical death.  The insiders know this already, that's why they're now looting as much as they can get before the game is over.

Now is another pivotal time in American and world history.  We must permanently banish the debt-monster before it devours us all.  [google and view Money As Debt by Paul Grignon]  Are we really going to allow ourselves and our progeny to be forced into miserable lives of perpetual debt peonage in and a new dark ages of corporate feudalism and inter-generational serfdom, by being artificially dispossessed of the natural abundance all around us.

Find out about the change we really need, and then get talking to everyone else you can about it.  Organize support in your community groups to demand that your local and state and federal elected representatives and candidates promote, sponsor and pass the American Monetary Act prepared by the American Monetary Institute, which is ready to go, to restore sovereignty and prosperity to the most resource-rich country in the world.  There has not been an opportunity like this since the 1930s, and this time we simply can't afford to make the same mistakes.

by Jamie Walton (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:00:53 PM

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Quote: "I have heard from a couple of sources that the bail-out money is straight-out money, not the interest-bearing credit/debt funny money that the world has been tricked into 'borrowing into existence' from the private 'commercial' banking system for the past 300 years or so (and which now makes up 95-98% of the money supply in each country)."

By "funny money" I was simply referring to money that is printed into existence as opposed to being borrowed. Apparently you use to the term to refer to money created through fractional reserve banking, a concept which I admit I find a bit cloudy. I've never really studied it. 

My main point, though, is that the $800 billion in new Fed bailout money won't be coming out of taxpayers' pockets in the traditional way the Fed usually sells bonds to raise capital. In that way, if I understand correctly, it doesn't have to be paid back. It's "funny money" in that sense that the Fed just waves its magic wand, creates the "money" and gives it to the Treasury. That's what I understand is happening with the $800 B. It's free money for the economy, and it's only downside is inflation, no? If I'm misinformed, please let me know.

by Sam Adams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 90 comments) on Thursday, Nov 27, 2008 at 2:34:24 AM

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Unfortunately, 'it's worse than that, Jim'. We now live in a GLOBAL 'con me'. Or, so 'they', whoever 'they' are, would have us believe. We live in a 16-digit ultra-refinanced, tilted-table card game of a 'con me'. And, we pay taxes to people that have stacks of T-bills. We pay rent and mortgages to financial institutions and their shareholders. And, we pay interest. No, make that LOTS of interest.

The federal government has GROWN. And, likely it'll continue to grow. More social programs, more reliance on the federal cheese pellet, more having your life metered out to you, and rewards for 'good' behavior like having your socially apportioned number of offspring and keeping your yard nice. Pigeonholing. Well, something-holing, at any rate, where you're going to have people stopping by the house to ask you when you're going to pick up that beer can, and why don't you go to church, anyway? Don't you feel like you're part of the community? Socialism is upon us, has been for years, they try to 'church' it up a lot of different ways, but 60 years of fraternizing with Europe without any check on their influence on our society and system of government now has people lined up around the block like a bunch of entitlement waiflings who've forgotten what independence is all about, and no accident, that. You're not supposed to be independent, anymore. That's pioneer, or rebel-talk, there. At least, that's how some in 'government' have come to see things, refer back to the european fraternization for the influence and inspiration for that train of thought.

Europe is corrupt. And, that's putting it nicely. They have their upper class, their middle class, and the working class, and everybody else. And, just like the United States, that bottom fourth is a growth area because the first three are based on false expectations. They meter everything out to their citizens, tax holy hell out of them, and then everyone stands around wringing their hands asking why the economy doesn't work, and year after year, the standard answer is, 'print more money'. Drive the barbed spike deeper, by a couple inches.

When one is a debtor, one's paycheck is essentially owed in advance. When this goes on long enough, one essentially becomes 'owned', beholden more or less to one's employer, chattel, if you will. You know where you'll be come Monday morning, and, so does your boss. And, so does the government. Reliable. Stable. Responsible. Or, owned? Owned. And, the banks etc. are perfectly happy to hand you a bigger shovel with a longer handle to dig that hole juuust a bit deeper, because they don't really care if you ever pay it all off, no risk there, they just want those low monthly payments from you for the rest of your working life. Government likes that arrangement, too, because every paycheck, they get a 'cut'. The only cuts that 'government' DOESN'T like are state and federal spending cuts, any limitation on their theoretically almost limitless capacity to assert control and authority over everyone and everything in their purview. Kind of starting to sound like Victorian England, here, and no accident, that. The european countries, GB included, have more or less hitched their socioeconomic wagons to the United States, ever since the end of WWII.

Let's stagger drunkenly down memory lane: Onset of WWII. Germany is paying exorbitant war reparations to France in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles. People are unemployed. No, a LOT of people are unemployed. And, unhappy. And, making noise about it. Along comes a german corporal named Hitler, war veteran and all, and he's got a GREAT idea! National Socialism! Everyone likes it, it lets them have an outlet on all the BAD people that've caused them so much grief, and what's more, there's MONEY in it! Let's take over Europe, they said, and they did, for a while, with HELP. From the United States. Enter Prescott Bush, banker to the Nazis. The rest is history, with Germans marching in the shade in Paris, Britain being buzz-bombed and firebombed, lend-lease, lots of lending and leasing going on there in the Second War To End All Wars, lots of milidusterpleximizing, too, and 'government' becoming VERY efficient at categorizing, tagging, bagging, weighing, and stuffing people into internment and concentration camps and uniforms and coffins and so forth. All very efficient. Democratic? Hardly. But it has all set the tone for us today in the 21st century, from acts and actions that took place 60 years ago in the 1940's. Censorship, incarceration, government propaganda, rationing, promissory spending, war bonds and all that, exploiting the public at-large, basically a greedy government control freak's wet dream, there. And, that proud tradition has carried on through today, propaganda, censorship, incarceration, rationing, and of course, lots of promissory spending for the 'war effort', of course. Sportertoops. You WILL sportertoops, citizener. But, we aren't even citizeners, anymore, now we're murkensumirs, interchangeable parts in the nashykonme. The Big Con Game. Do unto others. Before they do unto you.

The germans have a saying, 'wenn zwei sich streiten, dann freut sich der dritte', which literally translated means: 'when two people are fightink,the seiird vun, he es heppi, ja'? Especially if the third party is the one responsible for the first two going at it. And, some in government are past masters at pitting people against each other. Which is probably part of the circumstance involved in them getting to be in the position(s) they currently enjoy. Still not quite democracy, though. And, it hasn't really been democracy for quite a while, because 'government', while it should be for, by, and of the People, over the last several decades has referred to kind of a de-facto royalty set that's grown up around civil service and the military, and our Congressers and so forth. They get to hand out the promissory scrip, and everyone is supposed to eat out of their hands, more or less, something like that. But, the ultimate end to that party is that we'll be printing 5, 10, 15 trillion a year, to try and keep up with the interest payments, and the currency unit will itself essentially become worthless while the prices spiral out of control, and that's no accident, either. The people that have the revenue resources to destabilize the commodities market also have essentially enough money to buy entire states, and countries. And, since we're talking about investment banks and sovereign wealth funds and the Fed and whoever else is knocking around in there, the concept bears a little more study. And, then there's the question of what the 'market' is, exactly, and how ethically it is operated, and by whom. Dick Grasso. Mr. 600 million-a-year guy. POCKET change. Well, at least that how it still was in 2005, 2006, 2007 saw the beginning of the end as the shady mortgage practices finally came home to roost, and people started asking Difficult Questions about some of the seamier underpinnings of our glorious and beloved financial system, like, 'just exactly what are we doing to ourselves, here', and 'why am I paying taxes to somebody/some entity located in a foreign country, are some of you people getting homesick for merrye olde Englande, already'?

If we want to continue to have a free and independent country, then it's necessary to have a sit-down and talk about the kind of things that Congressman Paul was talking about, and foreign entanglements, and affiliations and associations that take place between our country, and other countries, and just exactly how much money is changing hands, there, and for what purpose, exactly, and who signed off on it and what their reasoning might have been for doing that, and how best to structure our federal tax system so that it serves the needs of the American people, not some wild-eyed globalist who would like more than anything to ramp up things like military spending to where they exceed a trillion per year.

My view is, 'the government' has to learn to say 'no' come budget-time. They have to practice push-aways. They have to become fully publicly accountable. To do that, they need help from the public, they need to hear from people, they need to be faced with Hard Questions, like, 'hows your third summer home in Costa Rica, there, Rep._________(name)'? Or, 'whats all this about offshoring, and why do half of my healthcare premiums seem to be paying for yacht fuel'?

People gotta read for themselves, and ask questions, ofhemselves, and come to conclusions, by themselves. For, of, and by the People, not spoon-fed psuedo-opinion tele-pabulum like what FOX and CNN shovel at the general public 24 hours a day, but more like the product of some structured reading  and independent research.

There's 300 million people  that call the United States their home today. That's quite the talent pool, to call upon to get the issue of the federal budget resolved. When people in D.C. start facing recall elections due to signing legislation that'll drive the United States further into debt, and hence politically into the arms of people that've already said they pretty much don't like us no more, well, then we'll start seeing some spending cuts. But, it has to originate from the ground up. People have to speak out and participate in local government, too, because change begins at home, when the individual fifty states finally get their socio-economic 'stuff' together(California), then they don't need federal grants, bailouts, or other 'helpies', then the promissory government doughnut becomes just a bit more stale, and a harder sell. When people say, 'please don't sign that spending bill, because you're just going to cause us to not only have to pay taxes, but also interest on those taxes, and, while you're at it, please urinate into this small cup, so we can have you drug-tested, thanks', then we'll start seeing the needles line up on the federal budget gauges, and not before.

But, we have to do this. Otherwise, we Murkens will never again in any way really be in control of our fate nationally. We'll increasingly be sucked into what are essentially other countries' problems, shaky allegiances with fair-weather friends overseas, and finally part company with our Founder's principles and become the fully socialized dystopia that Europe so desperately wants us to become.

Vote 'no' on socialism, support President Obama, but be the 'loyal opposition' when necessary. No free pass, and no free lunch! No tickee, no washee...

by truthtruffle (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 111 comments) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 6:29:05 AM

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Dear truthtruffle,

Now is not a time to be downhearted.  The analysis you present can be seen to be valid if looked at through a selectively pessimistic lens.  While it is certainly true that money and government are our biggest threats, they can also be our greatest opportunities.  All of their power, both economic and political, comes from us.  They have taken our power from us by various means (mainly through the theft and misuse of society's money system for private gain), but it still belongs with us and we can bring it back when we choose to act.  Money and government can be turned around to work for us instead of us working for them.  Money and government are the weapons used by tyranny against us, but they can be made into our most powerful tools against tyranny.

But giving money and government a bad rap will not encourage people to grab hold of these tools.  When you talk about 'money', it seems you are mainly talking about interest-bearing debt to the private banking system, but this isn't really what money is.  When you talk about 'government', it seems to me that you are mainly talking about the government behind all governments: the private banking system, but this need not be.

By turning one of these tools around, either money or government, the other will be turned around also.  And then what are meant to serve the people, rather than us serving them as at present, will be turned around to serve the people again.  By using these tools wisely, we can all enjoy economic and political independence and democracy; democracy and independence need not be mutually exclusive of each other if our money system and governmental system are properly run for the human race, instead of against it at present.

We can do this, and we must.  The main obstacle is psychological; it seems generations of conditioning has installed a barrier (or set of barriers, depending on the individual) that people have to get over, and they can and do, especially when put outside their 'comfort zone'.

And then the only price of freedom will be eternal vigilance, to make sure we don't allow ourselves to lose sight of it again.

by Jamie Walton (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:00:39 PM

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I still don't understand why you people are supporting Obama!! HE IS ONE OF THE LARGEST MOUTHS IN WASHINGTON PUSHING FOR ALL THESE BAILOUTS!!

Bailouts are so simple to understand- they are either taking money from responsible working citizens, or companies who had profitable business models, and sending it over to the companies who didn't. What in the hell is "liberal" or American about any of that???

WAKE UP EVERYONE!!!!!!! Your political messiah is behind all of this!!!!!!! Or just be like the Bush people for the last 8 years who say no matter what he's got my support and I don't give a damn what the facts say.

by Jeremy Frombach (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 68 comments) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:50:19 AM

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Jeremy, please do not generalize. While it appears that the majority of the contributors to this website are in favor of government doing lots (with money from citizens/residents/visitors/etc), as long as it is on the projects that they favor, there are a few who do not hold this view. In fact there is at least one - me- who concludes that nothing in the nature of human beings automatically leads to the conclusion that individuals must be ruled by others, as is done now virtually everywhere, in order that there be orderly interactions between them.

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Self-sovereignty, rational pursuit of optimal lifetime happiness,
individual responsibility, social preferencing & social contracting

by Kitty Antonik Wakfer (26 articles, 27 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 163 comments [15 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:10:58 PM

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you lost me.. I have no idea what your comment is talking about. Also not exactly sure what I'm generalizing about? Everyone on here supports Obama, Obama is pushing throught he bailouts. The bailouts are morally wrong, unamerican, unconstitutional, (add any other host of adjectives) and everyone is still like durka durka durr i love obama.

just explain this to me, that's all i'm asking. 

by Jeremy Frombach (11 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 68 comments) on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 at 9:22:23 AM

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