The right blames the liberals.

The left blames the right.

Remember this song?

The Merry Minuet by Sheldon Harnick

They're rioting in Africa, They're starving in Spain

There's hurricanes in Florida, And Texas needs rain


This whole world is festering with unhappy souls

The French hate the Germans, The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch

And I don't like anybody very much


But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud

For Man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud

And we can be certain that some lovely day

Someone will set the spark off...and we will all be blown away


They're rioting in Africa, There's strife in Iran

What Nature doesn't do to us will be done by our Fellow Man

-------------------

Everybody's got someone to blame 'cept for me and my monkey. ;)

by Mark E. Smith (21 articles, 30 quicklinks, 100 diaries, 1325 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:19:18 PM

  (0+)

This, from a neighbor:

Massey said that, after learning of Adkisson's alleged involvement in the church shooting, she recalled a lengthy conversation she had with him a couple of years ago.

Massey's daughter, Cameron, had just graduated from Johnson Bible College, and Massey was eager to share the news.

But when Massey told Adkisson, he didn't react as she had expected, and she ended up having to explain to him that she was a Christian, triggering an outburst that lingered in her memory.

"He almost turned angry," she said. "He seemed to get angry at that. He said that everything in the Bible contradicts itself if you read it.

"I was shocked that he had feelings like that, because I don't have the same beliefs. I believe in the King James Bible, I believe it literally. … He had his own sense of belief about religion; that's the impression I got of him."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/suspect-was-very-nice-guy/

by Joshua Snyder (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 8 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:21:06 PM

  (0+)

Look at the whole conservative agenda: Desperation verges on madness in their their sordid little game. Failure has been known to make people desperate and insane.

Deep down they must know their bucket doesn't hold any water - so they resort to lies, fixed elections, Swift-Boating, assassinations and murder.

Insane people do and say insane things.

 "By their fruits shall you know them."

by mrk * (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 312 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:22:24 PM

  (0+)

If humanity was a computer it would need to be re-booted.

by Cheryl Abraham (13 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 207 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:23:05 PM

  (0+)

It might be fun to blame those right wing asses and I certainly don't think they help but it requires a large amount of mental illness to do what this man did, regardless of what he heard on the radio.  If he hadn't listened to the right wing radio show folks, it would have been something else that set him off.  It takes craziness to go into a place and start killing a bunch of strangers.

by Lee Hillhouse (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:24:20 PM

  (0+)

The book, "We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families" is a frighteningly good example of why people must paid attention to the evils that have occurred in our past so that History does not repeat itself.

Many people will be very surprised to learn that the Rwanda genocide started with a continual beratting and hate speech against a particular ethnic group on a number of radio stations in Rwanda .... until all hell broke loose in that country resulting in almost a million people hacked to death with machetes.

I am sure they never thought something like that could ever happen to them.

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:11:53 PM

  (0+)

I agree, the guy went off the deep end. But sometimes, when a person is unstable, hearing a respected authority figure on the radio can be exactly what it takes to set a person off. I spent five years as part of an emergency psychiarty team and it's amazing how these kinds of things can be set off.

by Rob Kall (953 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 9:03:26 PM

  (0+)

a relevant story 24. Failed Conservative Values:  Violence and Brutality
		This article is a rather harsh critique of deeper Failed Conservative Values.  In interviews, Richard Wagner told me he thinks thuggery is a failed conservative value and Herman Blackmon mentioned the lynch mob. I didn't think that either the lynch mob or thuggery were actually values. They seem more like manifestations of a value or perhaps of multiple values. View @:DemocracyforAmerica.com  - Opednews.com - Dailykos.com - Groups.yahoo

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:25:34 PM

  (0+)

Richard Wagner told me he thinks thuggery is a failed conservative value

by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:00:32 AM

  (0+)

I think this kind of "analysis" discredits liberals.  Come on, some psychotic person snaps, and with no factual information at all to go on, we jump to the conclusion this guy was baited into doing this?

 I used to really like this site, but it seems to have gotten too strident and sensationalistic.  I don't think any of this is consistent with Obama's message of trying to bring some civility to our public discourse.

by Tom Cobb (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 11 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:26:17 PM

  (0+)

Don't you feel the conservative appeal to fear and violence to solve problems - like going into Iraq, US prison system, segregation, torture, hate radio, etc. helps foster the overall climate?

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:35:40 PM

  (0+)

A troubled soul aided and abetted in his rampage by every neo-Nazi right wing dipshit on the radio and television. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage and the rest of the vermin who daily use their corporate sanctioned forums to sanction pogroms and hate crimes may not have pulled the trigger but they were demons dancing in this pitiful and pathetic social miscreant's head.

They should all be prosecuted as accomplices to terrorism under the full weight of the USAPATRIOT Act, what the hell is it good for if it doesn't protect us from this sort of insipid domestic terrorism.

Just my two cents

EE

by Ed Encho (12 articles, 20 quicklinks, 65 diaries, 438 comments [14 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:27:09 PM

  (0+)

I guess it's a good thing that the 1955/Homegrown Terrorism Act hasn't been made law yet, or my dear friends here would be arguing that anybody who ever gave money to this nut-job should be prosecuted and thrown into one of the camps.

For heaven's sake, it's about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

This a-hole was a total nut-job who deserves to go to prison for the rest of his life.  Period.  End of story.  I don't care if he listened to Rush and Hannity.  I don't care if he ate twinkies and nutrasweet.  I don't care if he watched Faux News.  NONE OF IT MATTERS.  He killed innocent people.  He should be punished. END OF FRIGGIN' STORY.  (Personally, I'm just glad he didn't get the cowards way out of Suicide by Police -- so many of these creeps do that.)

I'm betting he gets off on an insanity defense, and the right wing will be right behind him, even though they HATE the insanity defense the rest of the time.

Let's make the right wing media OBSOLETE by winning the arguments and proving them wrong, not by banning them for their stupidity, vile words, and hypocricy.

by Charlie L (2 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 747 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:37:41 PM

  (0+)

There is a responsibility for creating an atmosphere of hate. That's why there are laws against inciting to riot.  The Nazis, Rwanda government, etc, first create an environment that allowed the manifestation of hate and intolerance to be manifest.   I think responsibility is more complicated than you are alluding to.  Your term, personal responsibility seems to reference the conservative definition of 'individual responsibility'.  Here are some more thoughts on that. 28.  Failed Conservative Values: Jeeni Criscenzo on Scapegoating
		I interviewed Jeeni Criscenzo in Sacramento, California. Jeeni brought up the prevalent use of scapegoating by conservatives.  I find it curios how a Conservative Movement that preaches individual responsibility is so adept at finding scapegoats and not taking true responsibility. I think it has to do with the type of responsibility they preach. It is not the unqualified progressive sense of responsibility, where you feel responsible for yourself and the society around you, but rather conservatives always talk about a qualified 'individual responsibility' which actually is really no longer true responsibility, but rather a value of selfish self-centeredness. It's like taking the value of love or caring and saying we're for 'individual love' or 'individual caring'.  The values lose their meaning and are turned into nothing but the Failed Conservative Value of individual selfishness and greed. View @: DemocracyforAmerica.com - Opednews.com - Dailykos.com

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:21:32 PM

  (0+)

I would even go so far as to say that the above named are the definitive cause of the Dividing of Americans.  Divided WE fall, but their ill-gotten gains from the hate they spew will cushion them from the consequences.

by grassroots (0 articles, 2 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:51:00 PM

  (0+)

With the answer being yes since this news article confirms that he was influenced by right wing fundamentalism.

Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list 

It doesn't matter what people think.

by Kevin Gosztola (302 articles, 146 quicklinks, 81 diaries, 1082 comments [77 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:51:45 PM

  (0+)

You have a guy with a busted brain. Then you have a bunch of people you don’t like. So you decide the people you don’t like, are the cause of this busted brain! Apparently, you are unfamiliar with a basic rule taught in Philosophy 101 – “Correlation does not imply causation.”

In short, it apparently never occurred to you to ask, “Did the busted brain get caused by the speech of people I don’t like,” or Do people with busted brains put people I don’t like on their reading lists?”

Then again, busted brains and people you don’t like may have no connection, whatever. I don’t recall the two busted brains at Columbine, or the one at Virginia Tech, or the two kids who did a random killing of an academic couple in New Hampshire or Charlie Manson, having any of the people you don’t like on their reading lists.

If you are going to credibly explain violent behavior, you’re going to have to do better than this.

by Sherwin Steffin (16 articles, 26 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 119 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:50:52 PM

  (0+)

????

by Kevin Gosztola (302 articles, 146 quicklinks, 81 diaries, 1082 comments [77 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:14:55 PM

  (0+)

Sherwin,

As much as I'd like to blame this on any and everyone who preaches hate and prejudice and use this to stifle their rhetoric, I'm afraid I have to agree with you.  If the man read comic books, I don't think we'd be blaming superman.  Or maybe we would??

by Mark_T (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 10 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:46:22 AM

  (0+)

The events that happened in that Tennessee church is just a mirror of what USA politically and sociologically.  There are a lot more chauvinist, right-wingers and racists in this country, than socialists.  And remember folks that right-wing ideology is evil, and leftist-ideology is good, humanist and moralist.  Remember folks that this country has always been fascist since 1776.  USA has a fascist tradition, founded and ruled by slave-owners, and committing wars of plunder and exploitation against the people of this world since 1776

by LincolnMarx (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 86 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:57:11 PM

  (0+)

 America broke every treaty signed bt the Sioux, and maybe more Natives of this Land,  No wonder WW1 AND 2 took place.  What shot was that tHat freed Americans Natives.  Not at all!

The second coming of the red-man is closer than any may think... 

by Michael Dewey (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 245 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 9:16:03 PM

  (0+)

Ann Coulter called for the killing of liberals on cable television, but lost not an iota of media time for such outrageous behaviour. She now appears on the major networks. Bill-O brands the mildly liberal as radical leftists and openly threatens them with some mysterious retaliation. Michael Regan recently branded groups that send 911 truth DVD's to the troops as traitors guilty of treason and deserving of death sentences which he said he would be happy to dispense. The entire right wing, talking pundit, idiot show is replete with references to liberals as traitors, treasonists, terrorists, and America haters, and their drumbeat rolls by twenty-four hours a day. The murders at the Unitarian Church are exactly the result these brown shirts seek to obtain.

We are witness to the first shots in the Second American Civil War. Our rulers want to force us to decide our government is obsolete, bankrupt, and cannot defend us anymore. We will then clamor for a New Order with a strong executive, limited political and civil rights, and the seizure of private weapons.

We lack only economic collapse and a powerful orator to complete the final stage in preparation of pure fascism. The ruling elite have manipulated the U.S. to where these events now seem inevitable, and the middle-class will then be poised to play its historical role and give rise to the American version of national socialism.

by W.M.L. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 537 comments [52 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:22:33 PM

  (0+)

We tell our children to solve their problems without resorting to violence, but then our government, the collective consciousness of American values, uses it frequently and now has condoned and codified torture - TORTURE - like a despotic government!

You add that to the horrendous mental health care, and the stigma it carries in American society - and the fact that this care is not available to many who desperately need it and add the violent hate speech on the radio and elsewhere, well you've got a recipe for a powder keg just waiting to happen for those with these types of mental health issues.

This guy's obvious anger problem was probably passed over as some sort of "normal" maybe he was considered the neighborhood grouch, who knows yet? Obviously he was far sicker than anyone knew and there could have been an intervention done for him a long time ago if there was such a thing in this country as free and available quality mental health care.

When is unwarranted male aggression going to be seen for what it is - dangerous, and instead realize that it is a treatable condition? It isn't cool, it isn't macho, it's a blight on society and on the world.

by Cheryl Abraham (13 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 207 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:29:34 PM

  (0+)

This creep should be sentenced to life without possibility of parole and placed in a cell block with blacks, Hispanics, and homosexual sex offenders.

by Carey Stronach (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:50:50 PM

  (0+)

The blacks and Hispanics don't deserve to room with this guy - he belongs in a mental institution not with incarcerated people, (many of whom probably only smoked pot to get where they are, or sold it) - and most pedophiles identify themselves as heterosexuals BTW.

Your comment is offensive in more ways than I care to go into here.

by Cheryl Abraham (13 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 207 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:15:29 PM

  (0+)

This is NOT terrorism. Terrorism is violence or threats of violence used to affect some change whether it is social, political, economic, what have you.

This guy just hated, so he went to kill. Not to affect change.

This is a mass murderer not a terrorist.

Second, we don't know what caused him to flip. It is possible he hasn't had a television his entire life, for all we know. So until this man says HIMSELF that Sean hannity or Rush Limbaugh or some other hate-spewing moron baited him into doing this, we should avoid repeating this charge.

just my opinion, that is.

by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:10:14 PM

  (0+)

Per this article in the Knoxville News Sentinel, Adkisson was quite the fan of Savage, Hannity and O'Reilly.  The reading materials found in his home and the 4 page diatribe he left in his car for police to find leave little doubt that he had been deeply influenced by hateful and bigoted Right-Speak.  No doubt he must assume responsibility for his murderous act.  No doubt, something in his brain is "broken", because stable people do not do this kind of thing.  But, the people with "broken brains" are the very people most influenced by the hate speak of O'Reilly, Coulter, Hannity, Savage, etc.

If this murderer has always been mentally ill, he hid it well for a long time.  He did a stint in the Army.  He married and divorced.  He obtained an Associate Degree.  He worked.  Then, he got down on his luck and sought someone to blame for his misfortune.  I cannot help but think that the hate-speak of his Right-Wing "heroes" convinced him that the folks in that "liberal" and "accepting" church should be made to pay.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/

by TennMom (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 21 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 9:54:12 PM

  (0+)

You are truly pathetic. Do you know anything at all about what took place at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church yesterday? Do you know anything at all about Unitarian Universalists? Do you know anything about the man who placed himself in front of the shotgun to protect his friends? You seem to be filled with hatred. I am sorry for you and all those who feel that spewing bigotry and hatred will make our country a better place. This man fully admitted that he was following the ways of those on his very on reading list...Hannity, O'Reilly, Savage et al. Please spew your disgusting hatred elsewhere!

by paz love (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 71 comments) on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:48:13 PM

  (0+)

We must find a way to spread out the wealth. As Solomon aid, "Money is the answer to everything.' And there is nothing better than to eat, drink and have a good time. How can that happen with out the wealth being spread out.

 Cooperative workers own the banks and collages too.

by Michael Dewey (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 245 comments [12 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:04:58 AM

  (0+)

true conservative, don't have a clue on reality. They like to think the GOP is the party of less government and spending, and might makes right, yet all republican administrations have done the opposite.

As for the church shooting, well if you have a conservative listening to the hate spoken by the Reich, and see how they use scapegoating, violence and intimidation to resolve problems, it won't be long before its audience begins to take matters into their own hands, with abortion clinic violence as another example.

It would not surprise me if you have more of this type of behavior exhibited against "Liberals" in the future by conservative affiliated individuals.

by Stanimal (2 articles, 226 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 1254 comments [234 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:19:36 AM

  (0+)

Funny how a post about supposed hate-speech generates so much more of it. Fair and balanced hate from the left and the bar bright right.

Funny how we're told not to blame Islam or the local Mosque for inciting hatred and violence against the west, but if one supposed person who listens to a few conservative radio guys kills someone, it's perfectly fine to slander and berate the whole lot of 'em. 

If dominant and pervasive conservative talk radio so influences people toward crime and violence, why do liberals always advocate for ex-cons having the right to vote? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see inmates voting, which would presumably mean all inmates including those on death row, if liberals had their way.

I wonder who this guy was listening to. I doubt it was Rush Limbaugh:

The suspect, Carlos Hartmann, 41, of Tecumseh, Mich., has confessed to the Sept. 8 killing on a train platform in the southern city of Roosendaal, defence lawyer Peter Gremmen said.

Gremmen said Hartmann wanted to punish the Netherlands for its support of the war in Iraq.

Hartmann appeared before a judge Tuesday and was ordered held for another two weeks for investigation.

"He hates soldiers, and says that the army kills people, so it would be legitimate if he were also to kill someone . . . from the American military - or from its NATO allies," Gremmen said in a telephone interview.

Crazy desperate people from all points on the spectrum can and do always play this game. The right has no corner on this market.

To imply otherwise is well .... hateful.

by Alan Williams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 858 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:19:37 AM

  (0+)

Are you serious?? This is your example?? I don't even understand what your point is. I have never heard of any of the people in your post and none of them have a liberal radio show.

Try again pal. 

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:10:25 AM

  (0+)

that homicidal wackos come in all different political stripes.

by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:12:21 PM

  (0+)

Liberals and conservatives are mirror images of one another; always eager to blame the other side for one sort of evil or another. That's why I'm proud to call myself neither.

It's a little early in the news cycle to begin playing the blame game. It just shows how hatred of either the right or left leads to reflexive, knee-jerk reactions, and I'm NOT talking about the shooter here but about most of the above comments.

I'm going to digest this for a little while longer before playing the blame game. But from what I do know, this guy just hated Christians, liberal Christians maybe but Christians nonetheless. That doesn't sound like anything he could have learned from conservative commentators, but is likely the result of a highly warped mind. In the end, it's unlikely the right wing can be blamed for this guy any more than the left can be blamed for the Unabomber.

by Sam Adams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 90 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:08:40 AM

  (0+)

Those posting here that claim we who blame the right-wing talk show hosts for these murders are merely substituting one form of hate for another apparently do not listen often to the pundits they defend.  Whenever I am driving, I tune the radio to a talk station to keep up on the newest propaganda this group of junior Goebbels are spewing and spinning each fresh, new day.  Since I drive often, I hear much.  Let there be no doubt.  As John the Baptist prepared the way for the Messiah in the Biblical account; in a macabre reversal, these serpents prepare the way for the rise of Nazism in America.  They intentionally claw and rip at the political flashpoints in American society in a clearly designed effort to instill division among the American people.  They want the people unable to communicate about their political problems for fear of violence so that disunity reigns supreme.  They subtly imply violence is necessary against those they label liberal, and sometimes openly state the need for violence against certain persons engaging in legal actions.

With the fairness doctrine long dead, and the FCC headed by a Bush appointee, no one is in a position to stop these criminals from continuing to commit actual crimes openly on the public airwaves.  I am not substituting one kind of hate for another when I abhor people who are violating the public trust and the law so brazenly and purposefully, and who clearly seek to damage the body politic for their financial masters.  In making the connection between the church murders and the right-wing pundits, I merely conclude the obvious.  When discussion of the benefits of politically motivated violence becomes acceptable on the public airwaves, then one should expect politically motivated murders to commence.  That the murderers are mentally imbalanced is irrelevant.  Hitler was mentally imbalanced.

by W.M.L. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 537 comments [52 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:58:06 AM

  (0+)

 How much longer will we have to put up with only one opinion on the peoples airwaves. Reagan killed the fairness doctrine in media because it infringed on medias freedom of speach. It is obvious that the medias freedom of speach can be dangerous to mental health. We should not allow the medias freedom of speach to interfer with people being well informed.

by Abraham Ortiz (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:37:32 AM

  (0+)

It was only this June that Michael Reagan stated:

“We ought to find the people who are doing this, take them out and shoot them. Really. You take them out, they are traitors to this country, and shoot them. You have a problem with that? Deal with it. You shoot them. You call them traitors, that’s what they are, and you shoot them dead. I’ll pay for the bullets." LINK

As Rob mentioned, people that are already on the fringe and have "busted minds" need very little stimuli to cause them to go over the edge; was it "who" he was listening to that caused him to commit these murders? It's a question to which we won't receive an answer. I do believe that if someone constantly advocates hate and violence, then it is just a matter of time until someone "with a busted mind" picks up on those "calls to action" and commits a crime they believe is somehow justified by their twisted understanding of what they heard on the radio or read online. Hate doesn't have boundaries...

The test is whether a Liberal/Progressive talk show host could get away with the same rhetoric, which I doubt, but we won't ever know because espousing hate and loathing is not our agenda, but is easily seen in the comments above from the rabid GOP sympathizers that believe the "left" is guilty of what they promote on a daily basis. This thread is truly representative of the pot calling the kettle black - and demonstrates that it's a big issue to those that condone hate and violence.

For now, this is a matter of mass murder and not terrorism, IMO, however, if it is repeated and aimed at the liberal community, it can morph into terrorism rather quickly - which is what I believe those that espouse hate and violence are striving for and as everything gets worse, is likely to influence more of those who are already mentally unbalanced.

William Cormier

by William Cormier (152 articles, 11 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 419 comments [9 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:34:19 AM

  (0+)

It's been on my mind too.   Though I did not know you had written about it like that.

"I'll pay for the bullets", he said.  After that, it was only a matter of time.

---

“You have to understand that the Bush Administration is a criminal enterprise masquerading as a government."   - Kucinich,  "On Fire in California"  - Meryl Ann Butler

by Aurora (0 articles, 95 quicklinks, 52 diaries, 648 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:27:41 AM

  (0+)

Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence so far that this guy obtained his gun illegally, or that there was any evidence he was sufficiently unhinged to be denied the right to own one prior to this incident.  He obviously is, though. 

You can no more blame talk radio for this incident than you can blame J.D. Sallinger for John Lenon's murder (Mark Chapman thought he was Holden Chaufield).  Crazy people do crazy things, and it's impossible to predict what may set them off.

So, I really don't think this thing was preventable.  Unlike Columbine or Georga Tech, both of which involved people who shouldn't have gotten guns who not only did, but did so with no resistance, and who otherwise may well have gotten their lives sorted out (adolescence is a trying time). 

I also have a problem with the idea that free speech has to be abridged to allow that a certain fraction of the listeners will be unstable and may react to it.  One may just as easily blame the "liberal" speech as the speech against it.  Some of the former is pretty hateful, on this very site.

by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:51:11 AM

  (0+)

Do you really believe the 1st amendment covers acts of volience and hate speech?

 If I were to go to the Republican Convention and told someone there that I wanted to kill John McCain I can guarantee you I would be arrested and my attempts to claim free speech would be laughed right out of court.

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:15:36 AM

  (0+)

Same thing would happen if someone went to the Democratic convention and did likewise, the Secret Service would haul him away. But people can post to a public forum and demand this guy be sodomized, and that's more analogous to a radio show. Savage, Coulter, et al do push the envelope and frequently break it. When called to task, they usually say they were kidding. Michael Reagan certainly would, if you presented him with a bill for bullets. I'm not saying all speech should automatically be protected, but have problems with setting the standard by trying to determine how someone with screws loose might interpret it.

My point was concern about a standard of free speech based on the premise that a certain dim-witted fraction of the population will "take it the wrong way". There are definitely laws against inciting violence and other crimes, first amendment notwithstanding, as there should be.  The legal standard in a particular case is often whether a "reasonable person" would take it as such. This guy clearly wasn't.

by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:53:02 PM

  (0+)

All you have to do to get arrested at one of the conventions is show up without an invitation or a pass. A private organization is not under any obligation to allow you in the building - or listen to you speak about anything.

The First Amendment prevents the government from interfering with political speech - even (or especially) speech that might offend someone.

So far, thanks to the First Amendment, outlawing 'hate speech'  hasn't caught on here - and we've been able to avoid the kangaroo-court thought-crime craziness currently tormenting our friends in Canada.

The downside is we occasionally have to hear people on the radio who don't agree with us.   We can turn them off.

We just can't turn them off for everybody.  

by tim bristol (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 89 comments) on Thursday, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:47:38 PM

  (0+)

The killer is probably mentally unstable, but the explanation of madness does not hold. It's a ''not seing the forest for the tree'' explanation. It's reducing to a purely individual  dimension events where the collective mindset plays a major part.

In our societies, some groups are disproportionately victimized by violent, unbalanced individuals.

These individuals are certainly filled with mental chaos, paranoia and anger. However, they go only after certain specific groups, they discriminate, they do not shoot randomly. Who do you think direct them to target specific groups? Who teach those angry guys to hate gays, liberals, minorities, women? Who stirs their anger and paranoia on a daily basis?

You know the answer. And I will believe the ''lone nut'' hypothesis when we see as many rightwingers killed by liberal madmen as liberals killed by wingnuts gone off the deep end.

by francine (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 385 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:36:09 AM

  (0+)

He was a nut.  His nut thinking lead him to want to attack liberals.  You can always find liberals at a Unitarian Church, and ALMOST everyone there will be a liberal, so he went there.  At this point we don't know if he was liberal, conservative or other.  Also, Unitarian and Unity are very different churches.  Add to this fact that Unitarians are a very endangered species.  I've watched our numbers decline my whole life. So sad.

-JN - Buddhatarian

by johnneale (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 15 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:01:14 AM

  (0+)

Oops, looks like we DO know that he may have been conservative, at least if his reading material is any indication.  It's too bad taht our society is structured in such a way as to push some people over the edge.  I suppose we are lucky that, given the last eight years, that this is 10 times more common.

by johnneale (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 15 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:07 AM

  (0+)

There is no shortage of blame for this guys murdering actions. Anyone who advocates the murder of anyone else, based on political beliefs should be taken off the air. Who sponsers advocates of murder? We should boycott the corporations who sponser and profit from these animals. Our politicians do nothing. If a left wing blowhard said we should kill all the rich he would have that edited out pronto. There is no liberal who would advocate murder. If it could be proved these bums influenced this guy they should be charged. If they call for someone to be shot for his religion or beliefs they should be arrested. Morris Dees went after the clan by proving a tie b etween hate speech and crimes committed by members of their hate group. If There is enough evidence to connect this guys actions to overt calls for murdering someone that came from these hatemongers they should be charged. This guy doesn't have a "broken mind" That is ridiculous. He is not alone in his anger and frustration. He is encouraged in his violence by other evil people who are allowed to spew calls to violence.We need to boycot their sponsers. Identify them and isolate them from descent Americans..

by robert braunstein (60 articles, 0 quicklinks, 21 diaries, 194 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:07:45 AM

  (0+)

In today's Huffpost :

''This evening we learn from the Knoxville News that officers entering the home of murder Jim Adkisson "found Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder by radio talk show host Michael Savage, Let Freedom Ring by talk show host Sean Hannity, and The O'Reilly Factor, by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.''

Case closed.

by francine (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 385 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:34:43 AM

  (0+)

I don't think that gives me enhanced credibility when it come to the issue, but I've got a lot of mixed feelings about the whole damn thing...

One thing that not a single person on this thread has even taken the time to consider or provide so that other's may consider is that the gunman's ex-wife was a member of the church (however briefly -I do not know) several years ago...  Surely this has something to do with his choice of places to commit such a horrendous act?  Perhaps the church was seen as aiding and abetting or even instigating the troubles in his previous marriage... he could have concluded that the 'liberals' in this church were responsible for his failed marriage and/or divorce... 

I don't think that he was 'insane' or mentally 'unstable' at all.

I think that if you couple my theory along with the obvious influence that Hate/Right-Wing Talk may have had on the fellow -you can get a very plausible motive...

I've got a lot more to say about all this stuff, I suppose -but, right now, I'm deeply troubled that (in my view) a person attempted to murder my son indirectly and indiscriminately for reasons we can only guess at. 

by C.Bid (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 739 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:11:15 PM

  (0+)

Very good point, C bid. I definitely think it might have played a role; and it backs my own point: violent angry men kill a disproportionate number of gays, minorities, liberals and women. Those who do not see a pattern here are asleep at the wheel.

by francine (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 385 comments) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:04:53 PM

  (0+)

Until we have any significant incidents involving angry women indiscriminately committing extremely violent crimes on an even somewhat regular basis in this country... well, what can I say?  You are more than correct!

And BTW, I wouldn't classify an abused woman defending her life as anything near being classified as 'criminal' -just in case some hothead wants to argue that ridiculous point.

I'll also shoot down any attempts at bringing up female serial killers as well.

It does seem to be a 'man's world' when we talk about these acts of horrendous violence.

by C.Bid (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 739 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:20:04 PM

  (0+)

I said that the gunman's ex-wife was a member of the church a few years back.  Let me clarify that statement.  According to the news report that I heard make reference to that detail, they reported that his ex-wife had 'attended' the church years ago.  I take that to mean that she was not necessarily a 'member'.  I have yet to have heard any other mention of this particular detail by the ever repetitious MSM.  All to often we look for the convenient explanations that the media are all too happy to run circles around...  The human mind is a complex thing.  Never underestimate what huge ripples a tiny stone may cause when pitched into water...  Hellbent thinking is but one side-effect of failed relationships and the propensity for violence (whether present or not in the man's former marriage) rests a mere split second away at all times these days.  What started between a man and his wife could very well carry over into a massive all-encompassing guilt by association type of thinking.  Such is life in these divisive and explosively chaotic times.

Somehow, that's hardly comforting to an extremely sensitive seventeen year old boy who is showing all signs of PTSD since the shootings...

Generally, I'm very good with comforting and consoling my boy.  While our religious views differ quite a bit (I'm a strong secularist who'd lean toward Buddhism I suppose), I'm usually able to reassure him and give him reality-based advice...  Right now, I'm having a difficult time myself with the situation.

When it comes down to it, I guess the true motive doesn't even hold any meaning ultimately. 

by C.Bid (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 739 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:04:17 PM

  (0+)

Just got in from warm water arthritis exercise and found this venue was tagged. For the fellow who said he was a person instead of a computer, I agree. I couldn't read his comment and walk IN water at the same time. As I left, I had this morning's local paper in front of me to post a QuickLink. It's human interest as only an 8-year-old girl can express it. Please read it. If you have trouble finding it, I'll be here and will see you're not spammed for more than a few minutes.

I'm waiting to see whether OEN member Don Williams is going to spin a heartfelt yarn out of this, which he is so good at doing. The church where the event occurred is where he conducts his writers' workshop. In general, any organization can use space there. The building is large, located on Kingston Pike. It was lucky the Presbyterians were there to help out.

by Margaret Bassett (45 articles, 2909 quicklinks, 42 diaries, 1851 comments [99 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:48:41 PM

  (0+)