Certainly, Hamas views the Palestinians as subhuman. Hamas usurped Fatah through terror, armed intimidation and outright murder. The 'election' took place with the voters under threat.

Then, Hamas increased the bombings of Israel. Why would any leaders provoke a nuclear power for two years putting their people in peril? They don't give a hoot about their people. They depended on the peace-loving Israelis being humane to a fault. In the past Israel ceased firing long before the Arabs received any real punishment.

True to form, the Hamas leadership hid in bunkers and sued for a cease fire after four days. The damage more severe than expected, the Hamas reverted to negotiation by body count. They trumpeted a few hundred deaths, as if it were equivalent to a Holocaust. [The Hamas had elected to build up an arms supply rather than bomb shelters.] They showed bleeding and dead women and children on Aljazeera rather than dead Hamas martyrs. Arabs demonstrated and soon were joined by do-gooders all over the world. If they have their way, Israel will fold under international pressure. In two or three years they will return to killing Jews in the 60-year war to go on and on.

by Jason Paz (68 articles, 88 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1386 comments [97 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:08:10 AM

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"Certainly, Hamas views the Palestinians as subhuman"--Paz

Anyone who can say this is obviously insane.

You are the one who sees the Palestinians as less then human that much is obvoius from all the crap you post here.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:08:26 PM

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From all that I have seen on any of the news outlets, print, radio, TV. MSNBC, CNN, and even FOX News. All of them report the same things. Hamas was launching rockets into Israel. Israel is expected not to defend themselves? It was the same story when Israel invaded Lebanon. Hamas is the ones building up forces in the residential areas, and launching attacks from them as well. Is Israel supposed to allow the attacks to continue in order to spare the innocents, just to show that they have more morals than their enemy? Or should the innocents simply accept these attacks being launched from their streets? I agree completely that Bush has messed up. Guitmo is a disgrace to this country. And anyone who has tortured a detainee should be brought up on charges of war crimes. There should be an investigation into the false intel that got us into Iraq, and people should be accountable. Im in no way saying that our country has performed flawlessly in recent history. What I am saying is this, if there is one thing the Bush Administration should have taught us, its that we are capable of being duped. Because of this, I feel that each person, especially in this day and age of the Information Superhighway, should search for their own answers and form their own opinions. I have searched, and found only confirmation of what the news outlets are saying. Do you have a source of information that says The Israelis are not being attacked? Or a source, other than Hamas itself saying that the Israelis are cutting off humanitarian aid? If you do sir, please share them with me so I can see for myself.

Im not trying to be argumentive, or disrepectful. Im simply asking you to share your side of the issue. Allow me to see your logic so I might make a more informed opinion of the matter.

by BillyV (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 14 comments) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 6:08:07 PM

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Of course Hamas was shooting rockets even when Israel was not firing back.

The real issue is: what is a people supposed to do, when they are in a huge prison, unable to leave, unable to find decent work, unable to find enough to eat, and the reason they can't is because Israel has closed all its borders--its and Gaza's, and has leaned on Egypt (who doesn't want a million Palestinian refugees) to keep its side of the border sealed tight?

Do you think passive acceptance of your own destruction is the only option, the most honorable option? It wasn't during the Holocaust and it isn't here, either.

And that's why Hamas, an extremely opportunistic, extremist militia as well as party, is still popular in Gaza. After all, they didn't cause the destruction, and they certainly didn't cause the starvation. They acted out the Gazan peoples' rage, the rage of impotence. And continue to do so.

There may come a point when their supporters will have had enough,but you can be sure that Hamas will be seen as martyrs, and equally sure that there will be survivors. And they will carry on, and recruit eager successors.

It will never end, unless Israel allows Palestinians to form their own viable state, or grants full citizenship to all Palestinians prior to annexing both Gaza and the West Bank. It could begin to end, however, if the Israeli government adopted policy to treat all Palestinians as full human beings, like allowing them freedom of movement and of rights to their land that cannot be expropriated for settlements or arbitrary military orders.

As for agreeing with either Israel or Hamas, they are both bound up in their own hubris, stupidity and testosterone.

by Douglas Smyth (27 articles, 5 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 90 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 6:44:53 PM

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"All of them report the same things."

Yes they do don't they!

They are all following the ISRAEL PROJECT Playbook.

This sort of thing may have a little something to do with it:

“We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force…. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that this will happen before Israel goes under.”--Martin Van Creveld, one of Israel’s most respected military historians

The American print and TV media have never been very good. These days they are horrible. If people intend to be informed, they must turn to foreign news broadcasts, to Internet sites, to foreign newspapers available on the Internet, or to alternative newspapers that are springing up in various cities. A person who sits in front of Murdoch's Fox "News" or CNN or who reads the New York Times is simply being brainwashed with propaganda. --Paul Craig Roberts 

 “U.S.-supplied Israeli F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters have fired missiles and dropped over 100 tons of bombs on dozens of locations in the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip. Over 300 people are dead and at least 1,400 more are injured. Many if not most of them are civilians. Food and medicine were already in short supply in Gaza and all medical facilities have been completely overwhelmed by this onslaught. Access to Gaza has been cut off by Israel.” --Stephanie Roth of 'Jewish Voice for Peace'

 The "rockets" fired by Hamas are "so powerful" that out of the 8000 so delivered , some 4 Israelis have been killed by them.

But dear sir, I cannot teach you history in a post of this kind. It is up to you to inform yourself beyond the 'programming' and perception manipulation you drown in from TV.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:24:47 PM

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"Or a source, other than Hamas itself saying that the Israelis are cutting off humanitarian aid? If you do sir, please share them with me so I can see for myself."--V

The UN.

International Red Cross.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:34:17 PM

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A resolution condemning Israel's military offensive in Gaza has been adopted by the UN Human Rights Council.

The non-binding resolution, approved in Geneva on Monday, said Israel's operation had "resulted in massive violations of human rights of the Palestinian people".

More than 900 Palestinians have died during the fighting, many of them women and children, and a further 4,100 have been wounded.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:31:28 PM

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Also see: Richard Falk UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in Palestiian Territories.

Are you still with me here Mr. V ?

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:48:12 PM

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-- Article 25: "The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited."

-- Article 26: "The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities."

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:49:46 PM

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Its not often Im swayed in a debate. Im still not completely convinced, but have seen enough in a few searches since reading your reply, that I may need to re-evaluate my stance. Whether we agree or disagree in the end, I look forward to seeing you in the blogs.

Billy V

by BillyV (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 14 comments) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:02:01 PM

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Well I'll be...

You are quite the open minded pedestrain! A rare breed indeed. I am not looking for "agreement" so much in my work, but to plant the seed of self searching and self critique in ones imagination.

Thank you for your kind words.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:56:56 PM

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And I know that my friends and family members do not, either.

It is the Hamas who treat their own people as pawns, a hostages, as martyrs for the cause, anything but human beings.

I wish things would be simpler, but they are not. There is moral clarity, on our side, but that doesn't make it any easier. Only clearer.

by Amos Fabian (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:30:39 AM

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"In fact, some Hamas leaders are, apparently, hiding in a basement under a hospital, surrounded by sick children being held as their hostages. On Sunday, Israeli soldiers in Gaza discovered a booby trapped school, and a zoo, full of explosives."--Mr. Fabian

Dear sir, "In fact--apparently" is an oximoron.

Do you wish to elaborate in such a way as to tell us whether it is "In fact" or "apparently"?

If it is "In fact" let us see your sources. If it is "apparently", let me just say that appearances are always manipulated in such instances as this:

"The truth is the first casualty of war".

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:02:45 AM

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William,

Thank you for correcting my grammar while not addressing the text.

In fact is correct. Apparently is not.

Should be: In fact, some Hamas leaders are hiding in a basement under a hospital, surrounded by sick children being held as their hostages. On Sunday, Israeli soldiers in Gaza discovered a booby trapped school, and a zoo, full of explosives. Is it any wonder that many are killed, including children? 

Why are Hamas leaders hiding in a hospital? They know Israel won’t destroy a hospital, and if they do, they will use the media to create an anti-Israel frenzy. 

 Proof? Here is a link as an  example: http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2009/01/hamas_leadershi.php

Please don't tell me that the source is an Israeli defense official. I would like to quote a Hamas official responding to this or explaining their actions, but they are not responding.

Hamas leaders are only saying two things:

Haled Mashal, safely from Damascus, is calling on his people to fight till the last Palestinian

Ismail Haniye, the leader in Gaza, will accept a cease fire only if Hamas retains the right to continue to smuggle weapons for the fight against Israel the occupier of Gaza (never mind that Israel withdrew two years ago).

Show me one country that would accept such a condition.

Show  me one leader who would not stop fighting after his people suffer so much. In fact, show me one leader who would allow things to deteriorate so drastically.

by Amos Fabian (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:05:15 AM

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Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza

All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.

The letter, published in Olam Katan [Small World], a weekly pamphlet to be distributed in synagogues nationwide this Friday, cited the biblical story of the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34) and Maimonides' commentary (Laws of Kings 9, 14) on the story as proof texts for his legal decision.

According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets.

The former chief rabbi also said it was forbidden to risk the lives of Jews in Sderot or the lives of IDF soldiers for fear of injuring or killing Palestinian noncombatants living in Gaza.

Eliyahu could not be reached for an interview. However, Eliyahu's son, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is chief rabbi of Safed, said his father opposed a ground troop incursion into Gaza that would endanger IDF soldiers. Rather, he advocated carpet bombing the general area from which the Kassams were launched, regardless of the price in Palestinian life.

"If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."

In the letter, Eliyahu quoted from Psalms. "I will pursue my enemies and apprehend them and I will not desist until I have eradicated them."

Eliyahu wrote that "This is a message to all leaders of the Jewish people not to be compassionate with those who shoot [rockets] at civilians in their houses."

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:55:56 AM

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Rabbis Eliyahu - father and son - are two of the most extreme Rabbis in Israel. Their followers are extreme right wing and ultra orthodox. They have the right to publish their opinions because they live in a Democracy. However, they are not good examples of prevailing thought here. Certainly not among my peers. 

My peers, like most Israelis, believe that we should make every effort to destroy terror and kill terrorists, while sparing the lives of innocent individuals. The Eliyahus would oppose efforts by IDF to drop leaflets on buildings warning citizens to leave their houses so that Israel could destroy the buildings (which are full of explosives) without killing them. This, of course, warns the terrorists as well. Is this ideal? of course not.  It is war. A war in which Hamas terrorists cowardly hide within their own population, stashing weapons in mosques, universities, hospitals and homes of innocent people.

A better example, of a sane rabbi, is Rabbi Menachem Forman, who is pushing for talks with Hamas and its leaders, has been doing so for years. If you wish, you can google him. I just heard him on the radio today, stating that both sides need to talk to resolve this. I agree, of course, still waiting for both sides to agree to talks.

You can find other examples that will prove your point. Sadly, some members of our parliament think so, too. I challenge you to find such difference of opinion in any Arab country or other non-democracies.

by Amos Fabian (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 4:24:57 AM

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Rabbis Eliyahu - father and son - are two of the most extreme Rabbis in Israel. Their followers are extreme right wing and ultra orthodox. They have the right to publish their opinions because they live in a Democracy. However, they are not good examples of prevailing thought here. Certainly not among my peers. 

My peers, like most Israelis, believe that we should make every effort to destroy terror and kill terrorists, while sparing the lives of innocent individuals. The Eliyahus would oppose efforts by IDF to drop leaflets on buildings warning citizens to leave their houses so that Israel could destroy the buildings (which are full of explosives) without killing them. This, of course, warns the terrorists as well. Is this ideal? of course not.  It is war. A war in which Hamas terrorists cowardly hide within their own population, stashing weapons in mosques, universities, hospitals and homes of innocent people.

A better example, of a sane rabbi, is Rabbi Menachem Forman, who is pushing for talks with Hamas and its leaders, has been doing so for years. If you wish, you can google him. I just heard him on the radio today, stating that both sides need to talk to resolve this. I agree, of course, still waiting for both sides to agree to talks.

You can find other examples that will prove your point. Sadly, some members of our parliament think so, too. I challenge you to find such difference of opinion in any Arab country or other non-democracies.

by Amos Fabian (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 4:31:48 AM

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"You can find other examples that will prove your point. Sadly, some members of our parliament think so, too. I challenge you to find such difference of opinion in any Arab country or other non-democracies."-Fabian

I won't take up such a challenge tonight. I am glad you point out the "sad" part of the extremsits in your government.

I assure you there are dissenting voices to "Islamist" madness. If you want to remain engaged on the subject, I can find an post such example...but surely you realise there are going to be such voices...the idea that all Arabs, or Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists is not your position surely?

I just wish you could see that this attack on Gaza is so disproportunate as to be obscene.

I can also bring you much more info concerning the sequence of events as they led up to this.

I have little hope of actually convincing you. I understand the truama that you must have surely suffered. I just wish you could understand the horrific suffering of the Gazans at this time, and realise that Hamas are Gazans, these people are all extended families...they aren't usurpers who came from without to put these people to heel--they are these people. A desperate people, growing more desperate by the minute.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:04:07 AM

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Of course there are many people living in Arab countries who disagree with their leaders. Undoubtedly, many Gazans oppose their leadership. I am saying that most dissenting voices are scared to voice their opinions for fear of reprisal. Of course you can find some, but not enough.

As I stated before, I feel for the people living in Gaza who just want to survive. I strongly oppose the leadership and the terrorists. Most regular citizens are not terrorists. I refuse to say they are guilty by association, or because they are doing nothing. They are not guilty for any reason. They should live their lives in peace and quiet. Hamas should let them.

How will this end, you ask? Simple. If Hamas wants to stop the maddness, they should stop firing rockets at us. Both sides will live safely when Hamas decides to leave us alone.

by Amos Fabian (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:53:19 AM

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"Both sides will live safely when Hamas decides to leave us alone."-Fabian

I am sure that is our honest opinion, I have no doubt.

However that is not what the history of your leadership's aggression shows.

That history is very clear, Israel will take all of Palestine and more...and you will applaud it every step of the way.

And you will feel the victim every step of the way.

And you will feel justified every step of the way.

And God is going to rage in His fury.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:37:32 PM

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"Grammer?" You confuse the concept of 'grammer' with 'context', they are totally different things. I am not here to play word games with you sir.

I will point out that the site you sent my to is entirely in the pocket of Israeli propogandists, in the first place. 

"The defense officials said it was likely that a number of senior Hamas operatives and terror chiefs were hiding and conducting their operations from within Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. "Hamas operatives are in the hospital and have disguised themselves as nurses and doctors," one official said. OC Military Intelligence Maj.-Gen. Amos Yadlin told the cabinet that Hamas was using mosques, public institutions and private homes as ammunition stores."

You ask me to please not point out that this is coming from Israeli defense officials.

I'm sorry, but that is precisely what I am going to do. This is like the CIA saying "We don't torture". This is a controversy that arrises because Israel allows no independent reporting from Gaza.

To consider this as anything other than Israeli Military perception manipulation takes a preconcieved and conditioned mind. Until there is INDEPENDENT verification of this story, I am going to table it as propaganda, much like the sinister bald faced lie of Iraquis tossing babies out of incubaters in the first Gulf War.

"By deciete we shall wage war"--Mossad motto

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 4:15:42 AM

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"Show  me one leader who would not stop fighting after his people suffer so much. In fact, show me one leader who would allow things to deteriorate so drastically."--IDF Man

Sam Houston..."Remember the Alamo"

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 4:18:28 AM

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The Zionist takeover of Paliestine in 1948 proceeded much like the treatment the U.S. gave Native Ametricans during the periods of westward expansion.  We moved into an already occupied land (in Palestine there were Jews, Muslims and Christians living peacefully in their villages) and pushed them from it, robbing them of their livlihoods and their dignity.  We herded them into confined areas called reservations (kinda like Gaza) and proceeded to limit their freedom of movement while distributing enough supplies to them to insure they would slowly starve to death.  We took their children and put them in boarding schools to deprive them of their language and cullture.  Then, when in desperate ways they tried to fight back, we slaughtered men, women and children and didn't feel to badly about it because they were merely SUBHUMAN.  Besides, we wanted everything they had and we were hoping they would either die off or go away.

I'd say the Zionists have the technique down pat.  What I don't understand is why powerful, numerous and wealthy Muslims in the area don't come to the aid of their brothers.  But then, with the growing unrest in Egypt and other countries in the region perhaps that will be act II of this Gaza play.  And if so, what will be act III?  The Zionists will hail out their nukes and annihilate the entire region?  And will the U.S. be backing them then?

by Bryan Emmel (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 415 comments [32 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 4:56:55 AM

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“We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force…. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that this will happen before Israel goes under.”

--Martin Van Creveld, one of Israel’s most respected military historians

Of course it would be the biggest 'suicide bombing' of all time...which would be ironic, if there was anyone left on the planet to judge.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:09:28 AM

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Of course there are many that think of the Palestinian people as subhuman. Rankism and classism infects the globe. Humans have a destructive tendency to see their differences instead of their commonalities. Zionist Jews created the Hamatic myth that darker skin was inferior. Look at all the problems that has caused. India has a caste system based on color and class. The Rwandan Tutsis used the myth they got from Europeans to kill the Hutus even though the two groups had no discernable differences in their physical features. Australians use it to oppress the Aboriginals. Zionist false Jews use it to slaughter the Palestinians. This is mindless but there is obviously a mass insecurity complex with whites who feel they need to have an undeserved advantage over others. Whites have to fix themselves but I doubt if it will happen. Too many are already lost and it is passed on to each subsequent generation with propaganda and poor parenting. Perhaps the next advanced lifeform on the planet will get it right, assuming the cancer of race does not consume the entire planet.

by Nfamous (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 104 comments [48 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:06:46 PM

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The fault lies w/ the Arab nations.  They promised the Palestinians that if they got out of the way in 1948 the jews would be driven into the sea and they could have their land back. We all know how that worked out.

The Arab nations surrounding Isreal could have assimilated the refugee Palastinians throughout the middle east. No, they chose to keep them in squalid refugee camps where they could repeatedly tell the rest of the world how terrible Isreal is. Until the rest of the world has come to believe it. They had a cadre of young Palastinians that they could fill with lies and hate. An Army of murderers who strike in the night, who hide among innocents and strike from hiding behind women and children. While we speak of sub-human... How does sending a young man or woman out among civilians strapped to a bomb humane?

All Isreal has ever asked is that their neighbors recognize their right to exist. All Isreal has ever asked is to live in peace. If even one responsible Palestinian Leader with the authority to speak for their people would sit down across a table from an Isreali and and accept Isreals right to exist, the violence would end. Remember Anwar Sadat.

by Pulladigm (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 59 comments [27 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:27:31 PM

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