Glenn Greenwald: Well, interestingly, if you used to use terms like Banana Republic to apply to the United States, people would think you are being sort of fringe and marginal and yet if you look now at even the most mainstream establishment discourse you see people making that observation all the time so Nichola Kristof, or example, the comments to the New York Times as well in semi-columns compare in the United States to a Banana Republic or third world country. Simon Johnson who used to be the Head of the International Monetary Fund. wrote an article in the May 2009 issue of the Atlantic entitled The Quiet Coup, the coup being the takeover of American Democracy by its oligarchs. And he described how the political process functions very similar to how it did in emerging markets in Russia and Argentina and some of the Eastern Block countries when they had financial collapse as well. And you are exactly right, The United States has been sermonizing to the world that countries in which the elites are able to exempt themselves from the dictates of the law are essentially counties that don't live under of law and cannot become first world nations until they correct that problem. And yet we are the ones who do that as much as anybody now.
Rob Kall: You've written this book and you are getting an incredible amount of exposure-- well- deserved. What do you want to have this book accomplish?
Glenn Greenwald: Well, for one thing. I think that any kind of meaningful social change, a pre-requisite to it is persuading one's fellow citizens to appreciate the depth of the problem and the severity of it and the need to act and you know, the only reason to write a book, I think, is to draw attention to things that you think need more attention and yet aren't getting it.
That is definitely how I think about the issue about the way the Rule of Law has been so clearly repudiated. And I think Americans already know, on an intuitive level, that this is true. I think it is the sentiment driving lots of the anger over our political class and certainly the Protest Movement that is rapidly growing, the Occupy Protest Movement. And so, you know, I think sometimes, things just need a little push, and the discourse, and attention in light shined on it in order to really light a spark and hopefully that is what the book will achieve.
Rob Kall: Are you seeing any signs of that anywhere that lights a spark in your heart, that things you are wakening people up, waking the right people up?
Glenn Greenwald: Really. One of the more most exciting and inspirational development in American Politics is the emergence of this Occupy Movement and I have been contacted since the release of the book by a dozen or so cities where the organizers have asked me to come and speak to - at their protest movement because the book resonates so completely with the protest. It's really describing the motivating force behind the movement itself. You know, and so it's gotten a lot of exposure in media outlets and venues as well. The book has sold a lot and done well. So, you know, hopefully, the cumulative effect to all of this will be to force this more into the discourse and shine more light on it.
Rob Kall: I have to tell you that I'm in Washington. I arrived this evening and I walked from the bus stop, first to Freedom Plaza and then to McPherson Square to revisit them. I was there back in early October. And I asked at both places if they had any questions for you and the uniform one was, "Will he come and speak."
Glenn Greenwald: Right. Yeah. Well, I'm actually scheduled to speak in Washington to Occupy on November 6. . Honestly for me, I've had a lot of media appearances as part of this book trip, with big radio interviews and speeches, and easily, the thing that I'm looking forward to and that I find the most exciting I think, is being able to spend time at the protests and talking to protesters.
Rob Kall: Okay. I know. About the questions and I want to hear, well, you know, let's just talk about that. What - talk to me more about Occupy, the movement, the occupied territories and where you see that fitting into how any changes going to happen?
Glenn Greenwald: I think in general there are two ways that societal and political change can be effectuated. One is by working within the political system to elect leaders and change political factions and agitate for reform, legislative reform.
The problem is that once the perception is ossified that the political culture and political institutions are no longer legitimate and are fundamentally warped and rotted. Then the only means for change becomes marching in the street and engaging in social disruption and social unrest.
It is precisely because there is a perception that our political system, not one of the two parties but the political system itself is illegitimate and does not permit that kind of change-- that no matter who you vote for, no matter which candidate you will elect, things pretty much continue as is- that there is this growing sense that the only kind of change that makes any sense or that matters is going out into the street and being socially disruptive and signaling that the status quo is unacceptable and unsustainable and I think that is what you are seeing with these movements and that is why I find them so exciting.
Rob Kall: So, we're seeing from the police a lot of violence, in Oakland, in Atlanta, in Denver. Do you see things staying peaceful?
Glenn Greenwald: I mean, the protesters have been very committed to peaceful assembly and non-violence.
Rob Kall: Much better. Yeah.
Glenn Greenwald: So, you know, I think that the protesters themselves have been very committed to peaceful assembly and to non-violence, but you know it is just a fact in political life that when you challenge or try (garbled)
(Note: You can view every article as one long page if you sign up as an Advocate Member, or higher).
1
