Dr. Scott Keiller is a licensed psychologist and an Associate Professor of Psychological Sciences at Kent State University.

Dr. Keiller's research on narcissism, prejudice, and authoritarianism has been published in peer-reviewed journals published by the American Psychological Association and others, including the Journal of Personality Assessment, Psychology of Men & Masculinity, Psychological Assessment, and Sex Roles.

Interview Notes:

Rob: I discovered you because of your article:

Male Narcissism and Attitudes Toward Heterosexual Women and Men, Lesbian Women, and Gay Men: Hostility toward Heterosexual Women Most of All

What were the findings of the study?

One of the most dangerous situations with narcissists-- when a narcissist is pursuing a goal and someone insults or thwarts the narcissist, that can lead to violence.

In planning study he considered: What person would have the most potential for gratifying or frustrating or thwarting a narcissist?

Patriarchal

Study could have found that Narcissists are angry at everyone, or that narcissism is simply a marker of conservative gender ideology.

Neither of those competing theories were supported.

Study supported theory that

Among male heterosexuals

Narcissism was related to patriarchy-- breadwinner, bravery, superiority of men

Heterosexual men's hostility towards heterosexual women-- have potential to gratify sexually, or to withhold, have potential to gratify pursuit of status, in terms of objectifying women-- trophy girlfriend or wife" narcissistic gratification is dependent on a woman assenting or declining

heterosexual male narcissism was related to favorable attitudes towards lesbians

Male narcissism may be a predictor.

People who are more narcissistic tend to objectify other people.

Rob: Can you explain more about what objectify means?

Scott: narcissism is on a continuum, so people can be low medium or high even if they do not meet the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder.

Rob: How would a person be able to recognize signs that a person is objectifying them.

Scott: It's tough to know when someone is objectifying you. It feels good, is flattering. The narcissist can be very skilled, charming, gives a lot of compliments-- if someone tells us they are impressed with us, find us attractive, etc. Narcissists make a very good first impression. They are high in social intelligence. They use flattery. narcissists are very skilled at getting first dates, making friends. It's the long term where they are found to be using using some superficial.

Rob: So if someone flatters and compliments you, that could be a flag"

Scott: So two narcissists could be perfect

Rob: really? I'd think one would have to be dominant...

Scott: if both are looking at using the other, like celebrities

Rob: You've also done some research with authoritarian personalities"

Scott: tied in with gay men and lesbians. Finding of authoritarianism is tied in with prejudice-- authoritarians say that people should follow tradition and convention and norms. Found that participants highest in authoritarianism tend to be prejudiced.

By and large authoritarians are most prejudiced people in the group-- very punitive to people they perceive as having the audacity to violate rules.

Rob: Define authoritarians:

Scott: people obsessed with rules, very much follow self-proclaimed experts on how life should be and moral. Someone who is authoritarian is seeking a leader to follow and blindly obeying

Very conventional, very submissive to authorities, often gravitate toward controlling churches, religious systems, political systems.

Most dangerous part o f Aism is aggression towards others,

People high in AISM is easily incited towards.

Rob: So people who are authoritarians look for people to dominate them. I found a study on charisma that showed that religious people who saw others as charismatic-- their prefrontal cortex activity is inhibited in the presence of t hose charismatic people.

SDO Social Dominance orientation--

-- a way to think about how someone may be drawn to a very hierarchical system where there is domination

Social dominance is a consolidation of power-- there should be different classes, different power given to different groups.

People high in SDO have preference for hierarchy, are aggressive, low in empathy. They capitalize the authoritarianism in other.

Rob: How is an SDO different from an Authoritarian

SDOs are more dominating.

Rob: What do you know about SDOs or people who are authoritarian and seek to be dominated? I know there are nurture and genetic and brain aspects.

Scott: genetic, life experience, parenting, environmental stress, economic downturn-- people looking for someone to blame, to depend upon.

Rob: You're a therapist and you've worked narcissists and people in relationships with narcissists.

There's a lot more hope for people in relationships with narcissists.

Encourage partners to do cost-benefits to living with a narcissist.

Our culture basically rewards narcissism-- the confidence, the arrogance the charisma that many Ns have is richly rewarded in wall street, Hollywood, at least in men, it may be punished in women.

Rewarded with relationships, raises, promotions, making sales.

Rob: From what I understand narcissists are not very good candidates for therapy because they don't think they have a problem.

if someone does have a lot of these traits, just run-- get away from the relationship.

Rob: how do they do that, because that's not easy to do?

Scott: oftentimes it's not easy. Talk to friends, therapist, sort it out, start identifying plans on how to get out of the relationship, get on your feet financially-- a person.

Rob: Are there specific issues that person may struggle with:

Scott: self esteem-- narcissist may belittle, manipulation to build up Ns sense of work and manipulate power. Worse case scenario, which is not uncommon-- narcissistic rage-- of really blaming 100% gratifying, supportive, 100% one street building the narcissist up. When that is thwarted-- narcissist escalates, becomes abusive.

Rob: and the narcissist engages in shaming and guilting the other person.

Rob: I've come to believe that people who are higher on the continuum of narcissism, psychopath, sociopathy scale are drawn to hierarchy, patriarchy and domination.

Rob: healthy aspects of narcissism-- can it be possible to be charismatic and a good guy?

you can be charismatic and driven towards power and still have empathy towards other people--

People with healthy aspects of narcissism are very successful.

Rob: There's the movie The Corporation". which applies Robert Hare's Psychopath characteristics to corporations. Where does narcissism fit in with corporations?

Scott: common traits of exploiting others, lack of empathy, completely devoid of caring for other people"

Rob: Are there narcissistic aspects of what makes a corporation a corporation?

there are inherent dangers-- it doesn't have to abide by things that humans have to. There's not a quick and easy way to arrest or incarcerate a corporation,

corporations are very much focused on status, amassing power, exploiting individuals, ignoring people, with pollution-- Very similar to narcissism-- to extract resources, as a person as a trophy-- a corp can be very narcissistic if the people running the corporation-- everything is for the good and glory and power of the corporation, very self-centered, egocentric--

You could look at the DSM5 criteria for Narcissistic personality disorder.

Rob: I've come to believe that every time you see a psychopath you have a narcissist.

Rob: it seems to me that those who are diagnosed as psychopath or anti-social disorder are the dumber ones, the ones who are more impulsive

Rob: FBI reported in 2011 that psychopaths cost the US $470 billion a year. Do you have any idea on how much research dollars are spent?

Scott: efforts have been underwhelming-- I would argue for something on more of a prevention level-- that would re-balance power, re-distribute wealth, reduce poverty-- would reduce selfishness, criminality.

Rob: Research you are working on?

Much evidence that narcism is on the rise-- increasing-- I am trying to document increase in portrayals of narcissism in popular culture-- analyzing scripts of TV shows from 1950s up t through now-- more focus on self , more caring for other people, more anger is expressed in television shows.

Pop culture is reflecting changing values and they are affecting scripts that get green light for production.

Rob: What about reality TV? Where does that fit into it?

Scott: That really is the epitome of "look at me" for not really accomplishing anything. They're not doing charitable work, not top athletes, top scientists, not accomplished in anything expect presenting themselves in positive ways-- it's the celebration of stupidity.

That communicates to people that you don't have to be intelligent, don't have to have anything interesting to offer. I don't see reality TV as benign. It does have an influence on people's perception of the world.

Rob: What affect do shows like Dexter and Breaking Bad, House of Cards-- with main characters who are psychopaths and narcissists-- how does this affect people?

Scott: long term these shows show long term problems for them.

Rob: Why is it that you and I and people are attracted to shows like that?

Children and adolescents are more narcissistic.

Rob: Children and adolescents are more narcissistic?

infants start only caring about needs, but begins to develop relationships

Scott: narcissism is characterized as a normal component early in life, but some of those traits are a part of our development--

Rob: So in a sense, adult narcissists are children

Scott: they can become infantile.