I interviewed Senator Bernie Sanders on July 9th. 

Thanks to Don Caldarazzo   for doing the transcript.

Rob Kall:   And welcome to the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show, WNJC 1360 AM out of Washington Township, reaching metro Philly and South Jersey.  My guest tonight is Senator Bernie Sanders.  Are you there?

Bernie Sanders:   I am right here.

Rob Kall:   Oh great.  Thanks so much for being on the show.   I really appreciate it.  Oh, I've got a long list of stuff I want to talk to you about.  I wanted to start with your Progressive campaign.  I just got an email about it today, and that sounds pretty exciting.  I'm going to post the description on opednews.com  (here)  but can you talk a little bit more about it?  And who are you trying to reach?  And how is it different from reaching out to Democrats?

Bernie Sanders:   Well it's very different, because there are a lot of people; my guess is the vast majority of the American people are disillusioned with both political parties.  I think they perceive the Republican Party now having become a Right wing extremist party.  And while the Democratic party in my view in every sense is much stronger and more responsive to the needs of ordinary people, I think many people perceive that the Democrats have become much too Conservative, and are too dependent on Corporate money, and [have] too much sympathy for big money interests, and are not standing up for working families. 

So I think there are a lot of people out there who are not Democrats and are not Republicans.  They're in the Middle Class.  These are people who are working longer hours for lower wages.  They're seeing their family income going down.  They can't afford to send they're kids to college, they're struggling with healthcare, and they're asking themselves, "How does it happen that the only people in this economy who are doing well are the very, very wealthy, and large, multinational corporations?"  Those are the people I'm trying tot talk to.

Rob Kall:   Awesome.  That's certainly my readership, because, the readers at Opednews, I would say 85% of them, are no longer very happy with Democrats, even though they're way Left of Democrats.  This is a great thing that you're starting, I think. 

There are so many topics I want to discuss.  The hot one right now is the revelations about the NSA that Edward Snowden brought to our attention, and I understand that you're interested more in those revelations than in Snowden.  Can you talk a little bit about that?

Bernie Sanders:   Well, what I mean is that I think the revelations are very disturbing to people in this country (and people, by the way, all  the way across the political spectrum).   In my view, you can't go around saying, "I believe in Freedom, and I believe in liberty!"  at the same time that you say, "Yeah!  It's OK with me if the NSA codifies and puts into a file every phone call that I make, or maybe they get into my website."  That's not what freedom, and not what liberty, is about.  People have the right to make a bloody telephone call in this country without believing that the government is filing that phone call (who they call, what time they make that call) into some huge database somewhere. 

So this is an issue that brings together people from different political persuasions, and which says, "Yeah, of course.  Terrorism is a serious issue.  We want the government to be vigorous in protecting the American People (I certainly do), but you can do that without undermining the Constitution of the United States - specifically, the 4th Amendment.  And you can do that by saying to the Intelligence Agencies, "If you have evidence that somebody may be involved in terrorist activity, go get em'!"  But that is a very different approach than filing every phone call made in the United States of America by 99.9% of the people who have nothing to do with terrorism.

Rob Kall:   Yeah.  One of the big things that has allowed that to happen in the FISA courts. 

Bernie Sanders:   Yes.

Rob Kall:   What I've learned is that the FISA court judges are appointed by the Chief Justice of the United Sates, John Roberts; and the current one, my read of his biggest claim to fame is that he ordered that a defendant demand that journalists disclose their sources.  To me, that's one of the most sacrosanct of all the privacies that we have, and yet, this is the guy that Roberts appointed to the FISA court; so it seems to me like the FISA court is just going to rubber stamp whatever it's asked for -

Bernie Sanders:   Well the issue of the rubber stamp is an issue that a lot of people have talked about because the vast majority of the requests that come in from intelligence agencies or law enforcement are approved.  I mean an overwhelming majority: I think over 99% are approved by the FISA court.  What in my view we have to do - and Legislation that I have introduced would do - is amend section 215 of the USA Patriot ACT (something that I've consistently voted against), and amend that section to make it very clear that before a law enforcement or intelligence agencies can start monitoring or investigating an individual, they have to make a case that there's at least probable cause (or some other legal definition), which says, "We have evidence to believe that this person is involved in terrorist activity."  That is the direction that we've got to go.  We've got to say, "You can't just file every phone call in the United Sates because it makes it easier for you to go after terrorists.  That's not good enough.  Before you go after people, you have to have reason to believe that they are involved in terrorist activities."

Rob Kall:   You know, I've spoken to a number of young people in their late 20s recently.  One is a lawyer.  He went to law school, graduated fairly recently, and he learned in law school that, about 30-40 years ago, a guy was in a phone booth, and he shut the door, and then they tapped his phone.  And he was basically released free because they weren't allowed to invade his privacy that way, because he thought he was speaking privately - even though it was a public place.  Now that young lawyer said, "Today, there is no such thing as that kind of privacy"; and young people across the board give that answer, "I don't worry about privacy because I have nothing to hide."  What's your answer to them?

Bernie Sanders:   Well you're absolutely right; it's not just younger people, that's what a lot of people say.  When people say, "Look. I am not a terrorist, and if the government wants to listen in or file my phone calls, that's not a problem," that makes me very sad.  It really makes me very sad, because it's not what Freedom is about, it's not what liberty is about.  You have the right to live your life, get on the phone and talk to anybody you want to, say anything you want to, without fearing that the United Sates government is listening or filing your phone call.  Furthermore, you have the right to have the confidence that when you go to a website, any website, you can do that without knowing that where you have gone is in somebody's file. 

And by the way, Rob: this is not just a government issue.  We're focusing appropriately enough right now on government action.  This is very much an issue that corporate America is involved in as well.   The reality is that we are moving toward the day (and we are there to some degree already) where every doctor visit that you make, every prescription drug you get, every time a talk to lawyer - whatever it may be, virtually every kind of activity that you engage in is being filed someplace.  That saddens me very, very much; that's not what this country should be about.  And the Congress has been way, way, way behind in terms of legislation - not only to protect the American people from government snooping and government over-action, but the private sector as well.

Rob Kall:   Now, you talk a lot about Too Big To Fail companies (TBTF).  I call my show the Bottom Up Radio Show because I believe that we're in a transition from a top down to a bottom up culture and world, and I really -- I've given talks on how we need to have bottom up economics, which means you don't give any big money to any big organizations anymore - and we've got to start looking at ways of getting money from the government to the people, not to the big corporations.  Do you have any thoughts about that?

Bernie Sanders:   Yeah, I do.  First of all, I think one of the outrages that is currently going on in the Congress is the degree that we are not focusing on the economic needs of working families.  You know, the papers tell you every day, "The economy is getting better."  Well yeah, it is better than it was in the midst of the financial collapse, but real unemployment today, Rob, is not 7.6%; it's over 14%, counting those people who have given up looking for work, and are working part time when they want to work full time; immediate family income has gone down by some $5,000 dollars since 1999, millions of people working longer hours for lower wages, kids leaving school deeply, deeply in debt, youth unemployment off the charts.  So we've got to start focusing on how we create an economy that works well for all of the people, not just for the top 1% at a time when we have the most unequal distribution of wealth and income of any major country on earth.  Those are what we've got to focus on.

Getting back to your point: what I see just in my own State of Vermont is there is a lot of focus and attention to issues like buying local. How do we support local agriculture rather than agribusiness?  Supporting worker-ownership or employee stock option concepts.  So in Vermont you have a number of companies which are owned [by workers], or at least workers have a significant say in what the company does and the profits being made from the company. 

You're talking about more community health centers (which are Democratically controlled, by the way) where local people sit on the boards of primary healthcare centers, thoroughly qualified community health care centers.  You're seeing a lot of effort to keep money locally.  You're seeing a lot of effort to have people getting involved in the Democratic process, and making decisions which impact their lives not only politically, but economically as well.  So I agree with you. I think Vermont may be a leader in trying to decentralize the economy, and give people power over their economic and political life.

Rob Kall:   Have you looked at public banking?  That's a growing movement advocating for what North Dakota has already done, and what about 40% of the nations in the world have.  What do you think about that?

Bernie Sanders:   I'm strongly supportive of it.  North Dakota did it I think in the 1920s, not quite a new concept there.

Rob Kall:   Yes.

Bernie Sanders:   Obviously you have this very Conservative State that is very proud of their State-owned bank, and by the way, it is something that citizens in Vermont are looking at, and is something that I strongly support.  The issue here is the degree to which we take out savings, and we invest it in a public bank which then makes investments -- invests in our communities and earns a decent rate of return, rather than giving this money to some Wall Street bank that engages in whatever fraudulent activities they engage in - makes a lot more sense to me to invest in local financial institutions who are going to invest locally - in housing, in small business, in agriculture.  To me, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Rob Kall:   Are you doing anything on it in the Senate?

Bernie Sanders:   It is an issue.  Actually, it's is on my long list of things to do, to make it - what we are doing is that we have legislation in which would make it easier for companies to move toward worker-control.  That legislation we have introduced, and we do it in a couple of ways; but in terms of State Banks, we are certainly looking at ways that States can go forward in a way that is easier than it currently is.  But you're quite right on saying that all over this country, especially with the justified contempt that people have for Wall Street and major financial institutions who care nothing about anything else than their own short term profits.  There  is a growing interest in how we can do it differently, including State Banks. 

Rob Kall:   I'll be speaking in a couple weeks down in Washington at a whistleblower conference.  The Obama Administration has indicted and charged more whistleblowers than all the past presidents combined.  What are you thoughts on whistleblowers and whistleblowing, and how they're handled and treated?

Bernie Sanders:   Well, obviously we need to protect people who have the courage to speak up and expose fraud and illegal activities at the government or corporate level, so we strongly support them.  But the main area that I am focusing on, Rob, is an area that I think does not get enough attention - not from Liberals or Progressives; and that is the economy, and the understanding that if we do not turn things around, this country will move very rapidly in the direction of an Oligarchy in which a handful of billionaire families controlling the economic and political life of this country.  There are a million issues out there.  That is the most important issue.

Rob Kall:   Our mutual friend Thom Hartmann and I have both written articles advocating for getting rid of billionaires, making it illegal and impossible to be a billionaire.  What do you think about that?

Bernie Sanders:   Well I think that Progressive tax reform is a very, very good idea, and I think people will recall that under the Eisenhower era, we had very steep taxes on the wealthiest people in this country (marginal rates), and I support strong Progressive taxes.  But the point is, forgetting just tax reform or anything else at the moment, the major issue in my view that we should be focusing on is, especially with Citizen's United, the degree to which billionaire families can control our political life. And what you're seeing right now is just beyond belief: that you have billionaires pouring -- the Koch Brothers and others -- being prepared to just spend huge amounts of money electing their people. 

And the economic power of corporate America?  We had the business round table coming to Washington a couple of months ago, and they're saying, "We Corporate Leaders of America believe that you should make massive cuts in Social Security and in Medicare."   There is a war going on against the working families of America.  That's very clear.  That is the issue.  There are a hundred different issues out there, but that is the issue that I am going to be focusing on, and I think we all have got to pay a lot of attention to.  All right?

Rob Kall:   I think my readers think that the corporations have taken over most of Congress except for you and a handful of other people.  What can our listeners -

Bernie Sanders:   The answer is, we know what the -- this gets back to the letter I just wrote.  I mean, clearly the answer is overturning Citizen's United and moving to public funding of elections.  Also, election reform which would make it easier for people to vote: all day voting, make it easier for people to vote by postcard, encourage people to participate in the political process, as opposed to the way many Republican Governors are doing, which is now making it harder for people to vote.  We've got to do those two things, but those things will not happen unless we have a strong, grass-roots, Progressive movement which is electing people at the local, State, and national level into office to fight for a Progressive agenda. 

Rob Kall:   And where can people go to support this new, Progressive campaign?

Bernie Sanders:   The website is www.bernie.org . What we have just done is we have a Progressive PAC.  It's called "The Progressive Voters of America," and what we're going to do with this money that we're raising is we are going to help Progressive candidates at every level of government try to get elected.  Sometimes you have great candidates, who a few thousand dollars can make the world of difference, and we're going to try to get it to them; not just candidates of Senate, or even the House, but the State Legislatures, and local government. 

So I think that we have got to do everything that we can to formulate a strong Progressive agenda that is protecting Social Security, real tax reform, dealing with Global Warming, and moving toward a single-payer national health care system, dealing with this horrendous student loan situation so that we can make college affordable for everybody. 

There's a long list of things we've got to do, but we ain't going to do 'em unless there are millions and millions of people at the grass-roots saying, "I'm involved, I'm going to fight, I'm going to elect good people, I'm going to hold them accountable."  That's what we're trying to do, so if anyone wants to help, then go to our website, which is Bernie.org , and we'd love to have 'em on board.

Rob Kall:   Awesome.  I'm solidly behind you.  One last question: can you make any comment about Opednews?

Bernie Sanders:   Well I think you guys do a great job.  One of the issues we didn't touch upon is a situation which is becoming worse, and that is Corporate control over the media: fewer and fewer large conglomerates controlling what we see here or read.  So if ordinary people are going to get a different point of view, a point of view which reflects the needs of the Middle Class and working families, to an increasing degree that we are going to have to go the Progressive media.  You guys do a great job, and I appreciate what you do.

Rob Kall:   All right.  Thanks so much.

Bernie Sanders:   OK, thank you.  Take care.

Rob Kall:   This is the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show, WNJC 1360 AM, sponsored by Opednews.com .